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    The Hunters Hunted

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    whit10

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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  whit10 on Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:49 pm

    "damned shame to kill such interesting creatures" mutters Daxx
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    MAS
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  MAS on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:39 pm

    To clarify - would running/moving out of Tson's current position grant the crystal-tuskbeast an AOO?


    yes it would, from what I just read, SO =


    Tson goes will "disengage" (core revised pg 156) as a full round action.


    Last edited by MAS on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  navyik on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:45 pm

    You can go 1 hex without aoo or use a withdraw action which is a full round action.
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  whit10 on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:49 pm

    if you withdraw though, any opponent gets an AOO
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Chris on Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:14 pm

    navyik wrote:You can go 1 hex without aoo or use a withdraw action which is a full round action.
    yes, this is correct.  you never provoke an AoO if you STOP moving after 1 hex in a threat zone, which is what allows you to approach a melee character w\o taking AoO. You can approach a "reach" wpn or giant, using this and taking 2 turns.

    whit10 wrote:if you withdraw though, any opponent gets an AOO
    no, any opponents who threaten you at the start of your turn do not get AoO - that is the whole point of using "disengage" or withdraw as Alan called it.  However, if you run through any other opponents threat zones, they would get an AoO.

    pg156 of SW

    Pathfinder has exactly the same rules, worded slightly better, called Withdraw, as here:

    Withdraw

    Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square. Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can't withdraw from combat if you're blinded. You can't take a 5-foot step during the same round in which you withdraw.


    MAS wrote:
    Tson goes will "disengage" (core revised pg 156) as a full round action.
    Ok - so where on the map does T'son want to move?
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  whit10 on Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:51 pm

    my mistake
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  MAS on Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:13 pm

    Just backing off...towards Dax or whoever is right behind/next to me
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Chris on Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:04 pm

    MAS wrote:Just backing off...towards Dax or whoever is right behind/next to me
    Ok, I placed T'son next to Daxx

    TOP 'O THE ROUND!

    The Tuskbeast by Sharn, who was hit by Rakhu's blaster fire, hunkers and releases the energy it absorbed from Rakhu's 3rd shot.  The release is a lightning blast, much like you saw with the Spine Dragon and crystals earlier.  The area of effect hits Sharn but doesn't quite reach Irwin due to his elevation.



    Roll(3d8)+0:
    7,6,5,+0
    Total:18

    Reflex save for half, Sharn.

    To the observer, the beast also looks to have healed a like amount of wounds!

    The TB attacks Rakhu again, full attack with Tusks and bite

    Roll(1d20)+16:
    6,+16
    Total:22

    miss

    bite
    Roll(1d20)+10:
    13,+10
    Total:23

    CHOMP!

    bite
    Roll(2d6)+8:
    5,1,+8
    Total:14

    lightning
    Roll(1d8)+0:
    2,+0
    Total:2

    Chris wrote:Initiative:

    Tuskbeasts 16
    Sharn\Irwin 11
    Revis + Duros 8
    Rakhu 7 (dex)
    Daxx 7
    T'son 5

    Sharn and Irwin are up, after Sharn's reflex save
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  navyik on Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:46 pm

    Vit 23/64 w14/14
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Robyo on Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:40 am

    Ref save:
    3+16=19


    Sharn flies into a rage and leaps onto the tuskbeast's back.

    Athletics check (if needed):
    7+2(rage)+9=18

    Grapple the beast:
    CMB check:
    7+2(rage)+15=24


    Irwin keeps his distance, circling and filming (of course).
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Chris on Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:24 am

    Robyo wrote:Ref save:
    3+16=19

    Sharn flies into a rage and leaps onto the tuskbeast's back.
    Athletics check (if needed):
    7+2(rage)+9=18
    Grapple the beast:
    CMB check:
    7+2(rage)+15=24
    Irwin keeps his distance, circling and filming (of course).
    Sharn ducks quickly behind the rocks and avoids half the damage on a successful reflex save, damage 9

    Sharn's grapple (correct me on this, since I haven't used CMD\CMB much)......

    Tuskbeasts CMD = 10 + BAB (+8 ) str (+8 )+ dex (+4) +1 size = 31

    Sharn is also holding a crystal, so he does not have 2 free hands, -4 to his roll, total = 20

    Sharn jumps on the beast, but in his rage, he cannot find a good way to get his furry paws around the Tusker.  Sharn's Athletics check wouldn't hit the base DC, so I think he lands in hex adjacent to the Tusker (basically, where he started)

    Rakhu is up
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  navyik on Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:17 pm

    Rakhu, observing the apparent futility of blasterfire, lets the firelance hang on its strap, takes a 5' step away from the beast (next to duros), draws the enforcer and fires:

    7+10=17

    If it hits

    6+2+4=12 dmg (slug)
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  whit10 on Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:36 pm

    your CMD interpretation was correct Chris. Combat maneuvers are not easy, especially against larger creatures
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Chris on Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:14 pm

    navyik wrote:Rakhu, observing the apparent futility of blasterfire, lets the firelance hang on its strap, takes a 5' step away from the beast (next to duros), draws the enforcer and fires:
    7+10=17
    If it hits
    6+2+4=12 dmg (slug)
    2 out of the 3 shots did damage, it just got lucky dice on the 3rd

    anyways.... 17 is a miss

    whit10 wrote:your CMD interpretation was correct Chris.   Combat maneuvers are not easy, especially against larger creatures
    thanks for the verification!

    Daxx is up

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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Robyo on Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:10 pm

    Chris wrote:
    Robyo wrote:Ref save:
    3+16=19

    Sharn flies into a rage and leaps onto the tuskbeast's back.
    Athletics check (if needed):
    7+2(rage)+9=18
    Grapple the beast:
    CMB check:
    7+2(rage)+15=24
    Irwin keeps his distance, circling and filming (of course).
    Sharn ducks quickly behind the rocks and avoids half the damage on a successful reflex save, damage 9

    Sharn's grapple (correct me on this, since I haven't used CMD\CMB much)......

    Tuskbeasts CMD = 10 + BAB (+8  ) str (+8 )+ dex (+4) +1 size = 31

    Sharn is also holding a crystal, so he does not have 2 free hands, -4 to his roll, total = 20

    Sharn jumps on the beast, but in his rage, he cannot find a good way to get his furry paws around the Tusker.  Sharn's Athletics check wouldn't hit the base DC, so I think he lands in hex adjacent to the Tusker (basically, where he started)
    Sharn was at 13 Vitality after the lightning attack. He gains 12 for raging. Current Vit 25/48

    Okay, I didn't specify anything about dropping the crystal (what is that, a swift action? move?). It would have been after the first fight, the fight with the first two tuskbeasts. You did allow Sharn to cover up Revis, and also make a move to the crystal rock, as well as speak a bunch of words. How long was that anyways? It's difficult to gauge since we're not using standard initiative.

    Sharn would have dropped the crystal before he started raging, but that's fine. I take a penalty, because I didn't specify, but my whole point is to have hands free at this point in my attack. Raging counters any use of Force skills. Sharn wouldn't bother with holding the crystal, especially if he's now trying to grapple his opponent, thus wanting both hands free. Just sayin. It's strategy. But I understand a DM's gotta make things difficult.

    Sharn drops the crystal so his hands are free.

    Also, if the Athletics check failed, he wouldn't have tried the grapple. His intent was to jump on top of the beast and then initiate a grapple. If he couldn't get on top of it, he wouldn't have used CMB.


    But that's minutia, and it just makes things a little more fuzzy on this time-delayed PBP gaming style. I put both actions together which probably wasn't wise. farao

    But either way, he probably would have still failed.

    We have been using the hybrid grappling rules for a while now. They are functioning alright, but I'd say CMD outstrips CMB pretty easily. Even as PC's level, so do the opponents (unless you're fighting lower-level opponents, which DM's rarely bother with). I'd say to be a reliable tactic/power, a PC needs certain feats that will add a bonus to one or the other manuevers. SW rules don't seem to support monk-style combat. It's on me for a character concept not in harmony with the rules. I thought I could make a tough non-weapon fighter using the rules. A psion/monk, if you will.

    Will Sharn get some sort of bonus for "riding" a large creature, say, by attacking his flat-footed AC?
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Chris on Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:22 pm

    Valid points Rob, thanks for the input.

    Just my .02 c's....

    the grapple would have failed either way, a 24 or 20 still misses a 31.  But yes, dropping it is a free action and if it made the difference in the roll, I would have asked you if you wanted to drop it Wink

    I see the jump on the back and the grapple as separate, but I can see why you could see it differently.  For instance, Sharn could land on its back but not succeed in a grapple (bull riding) or grapple but miss the back (steer wrestling comes to mind) or neither (miss the back and the grapple) or both (leg hooks in the ribs and arms around the neck\horns).  

    IMO, grapple is not very good against monsters (in any game).  I have never been a big grapple fan, but I like how you used it in Radiance.  I think grapple works best against same size people.  I think it has more to do with relative str, dex and size, than level.

    A tuskbeast, for example, is large and has a 26 str, so roughly like a rhino or a grizzly bear (maybe stronger than both).  I think it is reasonable that even a Wookie with a modified 20 str, would have a very hard time grappling a rhino, which is nearly twice as strong (+8 vs +5) and has the size\weight advantage.  It's like a middle school wrestler vs a full grown adult, the skill only helps so much.

    I like Sharn's concept overall and I think you were on the right track with the net (which inflicted a -4 dex, which lowers the CMD).  Or think about Beast-wrestling more like a Bull Fighter.... you actually have to weaken the creature (take away vitality and put it into wounds -2 str\-2 dex further lowers CMD and save or get KO'd) before you can move in and actually grapple the wild gundark.  Sharn could use his Force-imbued punches like a karate-bull fighter.  Or maybe some kind of stun baton?


    anyways.... Daxx is up
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  whit10 on Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:43 pm

    ...and just to chime in. CMB and CMD work more or less the way old 3.5 did but it's more cleaned up. Even by PF standards though, grapple still doesn't seem to be worth it. It really comes down to crunches... using a whip with combat expertise and improved disarm, for instance. Some maneuvers are easier than others.

    Anyway, Daxx will move north the tuskbeast that chomped on Rakhu.

    One swing:

    Roll(1d20)+12:
    19,+12
    Total:31

    Brilliant!!

    Confirm:

    Roll(1d20)+12:
    10,+12
    Total:22

    Crap, not sure if that confirms...

    Damage:

    Roll(3d8)+1:
    7,4,5,+1
    Total:17
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Chris on Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:13 pm

    whit10 wrote:
    Anyway,  Daxx will move north the tuskbeast that chomped on Rakhu.

    One swing:

    Roll(1d20)+12:
    19,+12
    Total:31

    Brilliant!!

    Confirm:

    Roll(1d20)+12:
    10,+12
    Total:22

    Crap, not sure if that confirms...

    Damage:  

    Roll(3d8)+1:
    7,4,5,+1
    Total:17
    Darth Ginsu strikes again and cuts down his 2nd Tuskbeast in 2 rounds.

    T'son is up
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Robyo on Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:52 pm

    Chris wrote:Valid points Rob, thanks for the input.

    Just my .02 c's....

    the grapple would have failed either way, a 24 or 20 still misses a 31.  But yes, dropping it is a free action and if it made the difference in the roll, I would have asked you if you wanted to drop it Wink

    I see the jump on the back and the grapple as separate, but I can see why you could see it differently.  For instance, Sharn could land on its back but not succeed in a grapple (bull riding) or grapple but miss the back (steer wrestling comes to mind) or neither (miss the back and the grapple) or both (leg hooks in the ribs and arms around the neck\horns).  

    IMO, grapple is not very good against monsters (in any game).  I have never been a big grapple fan, but I like how you used it in Radiance.  I think grapple works best against same size people.  I think it has more to do with relative str, dex and size, than level.

    A tuskbeast, for example, is large and has a 26 str, so roughly like a rhino or a grizzly bear (maybe stronger than both).  I think it is reasonable that even a Wookie with a modified 20 str, would have a very hard time grappling a rhino, which is nearly twice as strong (+8 vs +5) and has the size\weight advantage.  It's like a middle school wrestler vs a full grown adult, the skill only helps so much.

    I like Sharn's concept overall and I think you were on the right track with the net (which inflicted a -4 dex, which lowers the CMD).  Or think about Beast-wrestling more like a Bull Fighter.... you actually have to weaken the creature (take away vitality and put it into wounds -2 str\-2 dex further lowers CMD and save or get KO'd) before you can move in and actually grapple the wild gundark.  Sharn could use his Force-imbued punches like a karate-bull fighter.  Or maybe some kind of stun baton?


    anyways.... Daxx is up
    In 4e it's completely possible to make a Pixie Brawler. A tiny creature who's main power is grappling with opponents much larger than itself.

    It only makes sense to me that a smaller creature should more easily attach itself to a larger creature. It seems like 3rd edition has it backwards. In the rules, a huge creature can easily grapple a small creature, but not vice versa. I think that's dumb. So a giant can grapple a pixie? Yet, a small creature (halfling) can't attach itself to a giant's leg? Wouldn't that be a grapple as well?

    In CMB/CMD, Str and Dex are important, but since BAB is factored in too, the level of opponents is just as important.

    And Josh, your chiming in, with grapple working "more or less the same" just isn't accurate. Grapple checks in 3rd edition have more rolls and steps and could be considered more complicated. For one thing, it's a touch attack to "grab," which only then begins to grapple.

    To say grapple is "not worth it" means what? We don't try something besides spamming ranged AOE attacks? I'm sick of that. I want to try different maneuvers and stuff, but am continually penalized by the minutia of the rules, under the guise of "simulation." Another reason why feats are so damn restrictive.
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  whit10 on Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:02 pm

    first of all, a Pixie grappler? really? what does it do try to grab something's nuts? lol... that makes no sense from an even remotely realistic point of view, admittedly, IMO. 3rd edition had that as it's main flaw... too many rolls to do something simple, thus CMB and CMD. And, frankly, I don't think that a touch attack to grapple is appropriate, just my opinion, I know.

    Now, the problem that I think we're running into is that PF has a ton of crap in it to increase your size and thus improve CMB bonuses (plus, of course, the multitude of feats that you usually need to take to improve your chances anyway)

    Rob, I'm not really going to bother arguing with you over this, why should someone with a 16 str and a 10 dex be any damned good at grappling? You don't have the feats to improve your chances and, unless I missed something and you got an awesome roll for Enhance Ability, your stats just aren't sufficient to grapple a large beast like this... which is not to say that you can't build him differently as we go along. And as for grapple in general, sorry, I happen to think that maneuvers like trip or disarm are better. Just a personal thing, didn't mean to irritate you.

    I have discussed with Chris something that our PF group allowed with Hero Points in Charleston: allowing them to be spent to 'swap' feats when you gain a level. I honestly don't remember what Chris's final decision was as to allowing this.
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  navyik on Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:38 pm

    I would suggest a feat or alternate ability that converts "force weapon" into cmb/cmd bonuses. Also, pf has feats and variants that improve cmb/cmd. (I would concede smaller creatures "climbing" larger ones, but i wouldnt expect to see them hem one up a rear naked choke either). I like the wookie aligator wrestler idea, and if you look at some of the gators people wrestle...

    Systemically, there is a bigger benefit in grappling those who rely on weapons trather than natural attacks. Feats, prestige classes, variants: these are all in the dm's purview to facilitate an unorthodox idea. (I have never seen josh support an unorthodox idea).
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  whit10 on Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:05 am

    I've never supported an un-orthodox idea? Our epic campaign in Bloomington takes exception with that remark.

    I think the force weapon suggestion is a great idea, personally.
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Chris on Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:15 am

    Robyo wrote:
    In 4e it's completely possible to make a Pixie Brawler. A tiny creature who's main power is grappling with opponents much larger than itself.

    It only makes sense to me that a smaller creature should more easily attach itself to a larger creature.  It seems like 3rd edition has it backwards. In the rules, a huge creature can easily grapple a small creature, but not vice versa. I think that's dumb. So a giant can grapple a pixie? Yet, a small creature (halfling) can't attach itself to a giant's leg? Wouldn't that be a grapple as well?

    In CMB/CMD, Str and Dex are important, but since BAB is factored in too, the level of opponents is just as important.

    And Josh, your chiming in, with grapple working "more or less the same" just isn't accurate. Grapple checks in 3rd edition have more rolls and steps and could be considered more complicated. For one thing, it's a touch attack to "grab," which only then begins to grapple.

    To say grapple is "not worth it" means what? We don't try something besides spamming ranged AOE attacks? I'm sick of that. I want to try different maneuvers and stuff, but am continually penalized by the minutia of the rules, under the guise of "simulation." Another reason why feats are so damn restrictive.
    since we are waiting for Matt anyways....

    I agree that a Pixie could easily "grab" something larger.  But that is about where I see it ending, there is no way a Pixie is going to Pin, Immobilize, arm lock, choke hold, or restrict a large creature's movement.  It is just beyond the scope of believability.  Short of some magical boost to make their strength really high, I suppose.  

    You are right, my 6 year old son, who weighs 50 lbs and like to wrestle me, can grab onto me very easily.  But given that I have just 110 lbs on him, he can't possible hold me down or pin me or anything.  That 110 lbs is far less than Sharn gives up to a creature the size of a small car. 400lbs vs 1200lbs? The only reason Steer Wrestling works is because the bulls are trained to run and not fight back.

    Grappling rules specifically state you can't even grapple something 2 sizes bigger than you, so a Pixie is only going to be wrestling halflings or smaller.  

    I agree with Alan - you will find far more success grappling something medium or small sized that is trying to use a wpn.

    By all means, try something new!  That is the fun of gaming.  Have fun playing with it.  That doesn't mean that everything we dream up is going to work out the way we envision it.  

    I have to agree with Josh, you didn't really build Sharn as a grappler, you built him as a psion\mystic\striker monk, IMO.  So again, punch something until it is out of vitality, then grapple it.  Throw your net on it.  Trip it and make it prone.  You took all striking martial arts, what about improved grapple?  improved trip?  using enhance ability?  Wpn Focus Unarmed\Grapple?  You could easily be pushing 30 str with a slightly different build.  Or choose a large sized race.  I think you might have been better served with 1 level of Force Adept (for EA) and the rest Soldier for the Feats.

    I would be fine with altering Force Imbued Wpn to add that d8 to your CMB, but only 1 or the other, not both.  Sure, you can spend Force Points to swap 1 Feat per level.  Or if you are really not happy with how Sharn is playing out, then retire him to his Holonet career and roll up something else for next time.
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Robyo on Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:35 am

    I'm not interested in arguing. You guys don't understand 4e, so there's really no point. 3e is simulationist, 4e is gamist. They're different points of view. I do think it's silly to talk about believability in a (space) fantasy game.

    Shame on me for thinking my character would be viable. Shame on DM for letting me roll with a gimpy build.

    If he survives, Sharn will be parting ways when we get to the next space port. Guess I'll make a soldier or force-adept/soldier. It seems the only way to stay in the fight. Pew Pew Pew...
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  MAS on Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:59 am

    Tson drops the blaster rifle to hang slung, draws his vibrodagger, and readies action (attack, trigger = beast attacking thana).
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Chris on Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:34 pm

    Robyo wrote:
    Shame on me for thinking my character would be viable. Shame on DM for letting me roll with a gimpy build.

    If he survives, Sharn will be parting ways when we get to the next space port. Guess I'll make a soldier or force-adept/soldier. It seems the only way to stay in the fight. Pew Pew Pew...
    I am really sorry that your character isn't working out the way you wanted.  I like everyone to enjoy what they are playing.  I feel no shame, as I let people play whatever they want.  I just try to make sure everyone built them legally and try to point out when they missed something like bonus feats, as I did with Sharn.

    You are right, I don't know 4e and barely know Radiance.  I have tried to use the best rules available to 3.x, including PF (d20 4e).  I think I have been open to suggestions for house rules.  If you want to try and figure out a way to bring something from another system into SW, feel free to do so.

    Melee characters are totally viable in SW, they are OP in most cases.  But feel free to change if you like or consider a re-work of Sharn if you prefer.  You will all likely get +2 levels again, maybe 2 levels of soldier and 3 extra feats would be enough?

    Up to you.

    Our internet is down at work, so I probably won't be able to upload a new map on this gimpy hot-spot (someone's smart phone) until I get home tonight.  The TB will attack nearest enemy Sharn at the top of the round.
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Chris on Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:53 am

    TOP 'O THE ROUND!

    The lone remaining Tuskbeast lashes out at the wookie who dared to steer wrestle him.

    bite
    Roll(1d20)+10:
    6,+10
    Total:16

    He chomps down hard, but tastes only hot air.

    Tusks
    Roll(1d20)+16:
    1,+16
    Total:17

    affraid oh good grief!  

    The beast whips his head around trying to gouge the wookie, but Sharn dodges and the tusker overcompensates and gets out of position.  Sharn since he is adjacent can treat the tuskbeast as "flanked" for this round, +2 to hit.



    Chris wrote:Initiative:

    Tuskbeasts 16
    Sharn\Irwin 11
    Revis + Duros 8
    Rakhu 7 (dex)
    Daxx 7
    T'son 5

    Sharn and Irwin are up
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Robyo on Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:36 am

    Jump on the back of the beast (move action)
    7+15=22 (do I get +2 for skill check? then 24)

    Handle Animal check (trying to "ride" it and keep it from bucking Sharn off):
    2+8=10
    Use a force point (2d6)
    +8
    =18

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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Chris on Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:11 am

    Robyo wrote:Jump on the back of the beast (move action)
    7+15=22 (do I get +2 for skill check? then 24)

    Handle Animal check (trying to "ride" it and keep it from bucking Sharn off):
    2+8=10
    Use a force point (2d6)
    +8
    =18

    YeeHawwwwrrrrr!   Sharn takes advantage of the moment and jumps on the beast's back.  He is holding on, for now......  



    (best riding\mounted\rodeo image I could find!)

    Talib is too shocked to do anything.

    Rakhu is up
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  navyik on Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:50 am

    Ready to fire if sharn is thrown.
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Chris on Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:29 am

    navyik wrote:Ready to fire if sharn is thrown.
    ok

    Daxx is up
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  whit10 on Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:34 am

    move up to the last TB and swing

    Roll(1d20)+12:
    5,+12
    Total:17

    lol... uh, no critical this time.
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Chris on Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:39 am

    whit10 wrote:move up to the last TB and swing

    Roll(1d20)+12:
    5,+12
    Total:17

    lol... uh, no critical this time.
    NO CRIT FOR YOU!



    and a miss!

    T'son is up
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Robyo on Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:04 pm

    whit10 wrote:move up to the last TB and swing

    Roll(1d20)+12:
    5,+12
    Total:17

    lol... uh, no critical this time.
    Dude, you do realize there's a raging wookie on that TB, right?



    Hey GM, I'm not used to using the Rage ability. I forgot to add the bonus to my Athletics and my current Defense is only 15. Oh, and I probably should have used a Ride check, rather than Handle Animal. Oops.

    Do I have to wait 5 rounds to complete the rage, or can Sharn come out of it earlier?

    Also, you said you'd allow KO rules (similar to Radiance). How will that work exactly? Do I have to make 3 separate attacks? Will that take 3 rounds to complete, or perhaps 2 rounds with a bonus attack if I spend a Force point?

    Can we spend a Force point to gain an interrupt (standard) action?
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  whit10 on Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:50 pm

    No, I figured that he just had a big hairy tumor growing out of his back that roars and has claws....




    yes, I realize there's a wookie on its back.  Unless I fumbled horribly (which I didn't, and if I had I would have used a force point to avoid hurting you) you have nothing to worry about.  Relax
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  MAS on Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:44 pm

    Tson maintains readied action (attack, trigger = beast attacking thana).
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Chris on Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:11 pm

    Robyo wrote:
    Hey GM, I'm not used to using the Rage ability. I forgot to add the bonus to my Athletics and my current Defense is only 15. Oh, and I probably should have used a Ride check, rather than Handle Animal. Oops.

    Do I have to wait 5 rounds to complete the rage, or can Sharn come out of it earlier?

    Also, you said you'd allow KO rules (similar to Radiance). How will that work exactly? Do I have to make 3 separate attacks? Will that take 3 rounds to complete, or perhaps 2 rounds with a bonus attack if I spend a Force point?

    Can we spend a Force point to gain an interrupt (standard) action?
    Yeah, probably should be ride, since we now find ourselves at the TOP 'O THE ROUND, go ahead and re-roll that Handle Animal as a Ride check.  The Tusker bucks, jumps and snorts, trying to get Sharn off his back!

    This Rage is a bit different than a Barbarian.  You can Rage as many times per day as you want, but it lasts a fixed 5 + con rounds and after it ends, you lose the bonus vitality and become Fatigued -2 to str and dex and charge\run for the same number of rounds.

    Unless I am misunderstanding your question, you can only gain an extra action during your own turn.

    I seem to recall talking about the Radiance KO, but I didn't put anything in the SW HOUSE RULES thread.  Do you remember where it was?

    Here are the Radiance Rules:

    Knock-Outs
    You may forego all of your normal attacks during a round and use
    your fist or blunt weapon (or blunt end of a weapon) to render an
    adjacent foe unconscious. To do this, attempt 3 attacks, 1 each against
    your foe’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. Then count the number of
    successful attacks to learn the result:
    Successes Results
    0 Attacker suffers 1d4 vitality (bypasses attacker’s DR).
    1 Defender suffers 1d4 vitality.
    2 Defender is dazed and unable to move from its space
    for 1d4 rounds.
    3 Defender falls prone and lies unconscious for 5
    minutes.
    Apply a +2 bonus to your attacks if your target is surprised and a
    -5 penalty if it is 1 size larger than you or -10 if it is 2 or more sizes
    larger.

    An unconscious creature is helpless. Fortunately, attackers usually
    forego delivering a coup de grace to turn and focus on other foes.
    Waking a knocked-out creature requires a standard action on your
    part and a successful DC 15 Endurance check on its part. Apply a +5
    bonus to the Endurance check if smelling salts or a similar powerful
    stimulant are used.


    SW determines DC by taking 10 + class defense bonus + dex + feats.

    So I would think a Fort defense = 10 + class defense + CON + feats (great fortitude, etc)
                            Will defense = 10 + class defense + WIS + feats (Iron will, etc)
                            Reflex defense = 10 + class defense + DEX + feats (lightning reflexes, dodge, etc)

    Like Radiance, a partial success has lesser effects.  You do no actual damage as you attempt to build up your KO.  If you fail at 1, you have to start all over (partial success ends the attempt).

    I have always thought that rule seemed a bit overpowered, since it would potentially allow you drop any boss (Vader\Emperor) or be dropped in 1 round.  But I do think it is hard to succeed... so I don't know....

    I am looking for feedback and sort of a vote if everyone wants this in SW or not.

    Does that seem fair and reasonable to everyone? thoughts\suggestions?
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  whit10 on Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:24 pm

    If we are playing with Force points as Hero points from PF, then yes, he should be able to act out of turn by spending one.  That's a standard use.  You act right before the target creature as far as initiative and you can only take a move or standard action.

    as for the knockout stuff... man, I don't even know. lol... I'm down with whatever
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  navyik on Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:34 pm

    Im easy.
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Robyo on Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:43 am

    Hmm. I'll reroll, but since I spent a Force point earlier, can we use that bonus now instead?

    Ride check:
    0+10(+8 Force point bonus)=10 (or 18)
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Chris on Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:31 am

    Robyo wrote:
    Can we spend a Force point to gain an interrupt (standard) action?
    like I said, I might have misunderstood his question......

    whit10 wrote:If we are playing with Force points as Hero points from PF, then yes, he should be able to act out of turn by spending one.  That's a standard use.  You act right before the target creature as far as initiative and you can only take a move or standard action.
    Here area the 2 options that are close:

    Act Out of Turn: You can spend a hero point to take your turn immediately. Treat this as a readied action, moving your initiative to just before the currently acting creature. You may only take a move or a standard action on this turn.

    It is not a bonus interrupt, it uses your full turn and you actually lose half your action in the initiative shift.  You could only do this if you had not already acted in the round, ie your initiative was lower and you moved up, but if you had already acted, you are done for the round.

    Extra Action: You can spend a hero point on your turn to gain an additional standard or move action this turn.

    I was thinking of this application, an extra action, which can only be taken on your turn.  Sorry for any confusion.  Does that answer the question?


    Robyo wrote:Hmm. I'll reroll, but since I spent a Force point earlier, can we use that bonus now instead?

    Ride check:
    0+10(+8 Force point bonus)=10 (or 18)
    yeah, of course you can keep the FP roll from earlier.

    As for the roll, sorry that I didn't explain it better earlier.  

    Handle animal - is a Trained Only skill, which Sharn doesn't have and is not even listed in SW, which is probably why you didn't buy ranks in it.  I read the whole description in PF and it doesn't have a "breaking a wild horse" application.  It has raise a wild baby, train a domesticated animal and "push" an trained\domesticated animal.  Since none of those really apply here, that is why I shifted it to a Ride check, just letting your roll go, since you also have 0 in Ride, I figured it was close and tried not bog the scene down.

    Ride - you take a -5 penalty for unfamiliar animal and a -5 for riding bareback, so taking your initial roll of 18 -10 = 8,Sharn just barely made the DC 5 to "stay in the saddle".  thus....

    Chris wrote:
    YeeHawwwwrrrrr!   Sharn takes advantage of the moment and jumps on the beast's back.  He is holding on, for now......  
    Since we are at the top of the round and the tusker is now actively trying to buck Sharn off, I thought another ride check would be appropriate.  Is this where you were thinking of interrupting his bucking and moving up 1 spot in initiative order to do something?

    drunken whew, I hope that clears it up!
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Robyo on Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:42 pm

    Chris wrote:
    Robyo wrote:
    Can we spend a Force point to gain an interrupt (standard) action?
    like I said, I might have misunderstood his question......

    whit10 wrote:If we are playing with Force points as Hero points from PF, then yes, he should be able to act out of turn by spending one.  That's a standard use.  You act right before the target creature as far as initiative and you can only take a move or standard action.
    Here area the 2 options that are close:

    Act Out of Turn: You can spend a hero point to take your turn immediately. Treat this as a readied action, moving your initiative to just before the currently acting creature. You may only take a move or a standard action on this turn.

    It is not a bonus interrupt, it uses your full turn and you actually lose half your action in the initiative shift.  You could only do this if you had not already acted in the round, ie your initiative was lower and you moved up, but if you had already acted, you are done for the round.

    Extra Action: You can spend a hero point on your turn to gain an additional standard or move action this turn.

    I was thinking of this application, an extra action, which can only be taken on your turn.  Sorry for any confusion.  Does that answer the question?


    Robyo wrote:Hmm. I'll reroll, but since I spent a Force point earlier, can we use that bonus now instead?

    Ride check:
    0+10(+8 Force point bonus)=10 (or 18)
    yeah, of course you can keep the FP roll from earlier.

    As for the roll, sorry that I didn't explain it better earlier.  

    Handle animal - is a Trained Only skill, which Sharn doesn't have and is not even listed in SW, which is probably why you didn't buy ranks in it.  I read the whole description in PF and it doesn't have a "breaking a wild horse" application.  It has raise a wild baby, train a domesticated animal and "push" an trained\domesticated animal.  Since none of those really apply here, that is why I shifted it to a Ride check, just letting your roll go, since you also have 0 in Ride, I figured it was close and tried not bog the scene down.

    Ride - you take a -5 penalty for unfamiliar animal and a -5 for riding bareback, so taking your initial roll of 18 -10 = 8,Sharn just barely made the DC 5 to "stay in the saddle".  thus....

    Chris wrote:
    YeeHawwwwrrrrr!   Sharn takes advantage of the moment and jumps on the beast's back.  He is holding on, for now......  
    Since we are at the top of the round and the tusker is now actively trying to buck Sharn off, I thought another ride check would be appropriate.  Is this where you were thinking of interrupting his bucking and moving up 1 spot in initiative order to do something?

    drunken whew, I hope that clears it up!
    Clear as mud! geek 

    Lessee... Handle Animal IS in Star Wars Revised Core RPG. Skill description on p.90.

    Handle Animal is Cha-based and Ride is Dex-based, which is as it should be.
    They list a few different "tasks" Handle Animal skill can be used with. You're right that it doesn't cover "breaking a wild horse/animal" scenerio, which is kinda lame.

    Sharn does have Handle Animal skill. He put 2 ranks in it. It is a Force-Adept class skill.

    As for the interrupt, I'm fine staying in the initiative order. I am just trying to figure out how to attempt a KO in one or two rounds. If I spend a force point on my turn to gain a second attack, can I spend another one later in that round to gain an interrupt? That was my question.

    Now, I'm generally consulting the SW book, and the House Rules thread when needed, but maybe I should be looking at PF instead? Since you seem to be referencing that text quite often.
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Chris on Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:11 pm

    Robyo wrote:
    Clear as mud! geek 

    Lessee... Handle Animal IS in Star Wars Revised Core RPG. Skill description on p.90.

    If I spend a force point on my turn to gain a second attack, can I spend another one later in that round to gain an interrupt? That was my question.
    clown  good!

    yeah, Handle Animal was under H for handle, not A for animal.... Suspect I see it now.

    You can only spend 1 Force Point per round, whenever\however you choose.

    study  I reference PF as a default when I don't find something in SW.  I think Hide is mad we combined it with MS and was concealing Handle Animal.


    Back to the action!

    The Tuskbeast is trying, on his turn if there are no interrupts, to buck Sharn off. Sharn needs a Ride check (-5 unfamiliar animal, -5 no saddle) DC 5 to stay on its back.
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Robyo on Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:47 am

    Yes, I'm happy to get back to the action. Apologies to the other players if they feel like this has bogged down. I'm just trying to understand my options and the sequence of events. Certainly part of the problem of PBP gaming is the time-delay in response to questions. But sometimes I think it's best to go slowly and get things right.

    This will be my second Ride check. First one I used a Force Point, which I now feel was wasted, since last round is when Sharn jumped on the beast's back. That occurred after the beast's action so in my mind, it wouldn't have a chance to try to buck him off until now.

    Now in this round, the beast is bucking Sharn. Isn't this when the initial Ride check should really be applied? But whatever. I'm only bringing it up because I'm running low on Force Points!

    Ride Check:
    0+11=11
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Robyo on Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:16 am

    Sharn karate chops the beast on it's head, trying a KO:
    (BAB:+4,Str+5)
    9+12=21

    Spend a Force Point for a Second Attack:
    9+1=fumble!

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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  whit10 on Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:07 am

    all good man, do what you gotta do
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Chris on Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:56 pm

    Robyo wrote:
    This will be my second Ride check. First one I used a Force Point, which I now feel was wasted, since last round is when Sharn jumped on the beast's back. That occurred after the beast's action so in my mind, it wouldn't have a chance to try to buck him off until now.

    Now in this round, the beast is bucking Sharn. Isn't this when the initial Ride check should really be applied? But whatever. I'm only bringing it up because I'm running low on Force Points!

    Ride Check:
    0+11=11
    confused oh, my bad, I forgot you made the earlier Ride check roll, I just got lost in the thread.  This is the first round still!  

    I found your roll 10 + 8 FP = 18 -5 no saddle, -5 unfamiliar mount = 8

    so again, Sharn barely hangs on

    Robyo wrote:Sharn karate chops the beast on it's head, trying a KO:
    (BAB:+4,Str+5)
    9+12=21

    Spend a Force Point for a Second Attack:
    9+1=fumble!

    Ok, now I am confused....  if you are trying for the KO, as we posted above, you should be making 3 attack rolls and you do not need to spend the Force point.  I think you forego your regular attacks and make 1 roll vs Fort, Ref, Will, so it is really 1 attack, represented in 3 rolls.

    Chris wrote:
    Here are the Radiance Rules:

    Knock-Outs
    You may forego all of your normal attacks during a round and use
    your fist or blunt weapon (or blunt end of a weapon) to render an
    adjacent foe unconscious. To do this, attempt 3 attacks, 1 each against
    your foe’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. Then count the number of
    successful attacks to learn the result:
    Successes Results
    0 Attacker suffers 1d4 vitality (bypasses attacker’s DR).
    1 Defender suffers 1d4 vitality.
    2 Defender is dazed and unable to move from its space
    for 1d4 rounds.
    3 Defender falls prone and lies unconscious for 5
    minutes.
    Apply a +2 bonus to your attacks if your target is surprised and a
    -5 penalty if it is 1 size larger than you or -10 if it is 2 or more sizes
    larger.

    An unconscious creature is helpless. Fortunately, attackers usually
    forego delivering a coup de grace to turn and focus on other foes.
    Waking a knocked-out creature requires a standard action on your
    part and a successful DC 15 Endurance check on its part. Apply a +5
    bonus to the Endurance check if smelling salts or a similar powerful
    stimulant are used.


    SW determines DC by taking 10 + class defense bonus + dex + feats.

    So I would think a Fort defense = 10 + class defense + CON + feats (great fortitude, etc)
                           Will defense = 10 + class defense + WIS + feats (Iron will, etc)
                           Reflex defense = 10 + class defense + DEX + feats (lightning reflexes, dodge, etc)

    I calculated the SW equivalent for the Tuskbeast's 3 defensive stats, Sharn makes 3 rolls, each at -5 due to size penalty. Keep that last Force point and the attempt ends on the fumbled 2nd roll. The first roll was not a success anyways, so with 0 successes, the Tuskbeast take 1d4 vitality.

    Or am I misinterpreting that Radiance rule?
    avatar
    Robyo

    Posts : 2761
    Join date : 2012-04-29

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    Action Points:
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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Robyo on Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:16 pm

    OIC! cheers 

    It makes sense to me now! I thought I had to try to squeeze 3 standard attack actions in one round. Obviously, a near impossibility.

    Yeah, it's taking awhile to sink it, but I think we're finally on board with how KO works!

    So then, since it's still his turn, I will spend that Force point to get a second attack (unless the fumble makes Sharn ineligible to do so). Sharn forgoes the standard attack for a 2nd KO attempt:

    1st) 9+15=24
    2nd) 9+11=21
    3rd) 9+9=18
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    Chris

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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  Chris on Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:53 pm

    Robyo wrote:OIC! cheers 
    So then, since it's still his turn, I will spend that Force point to get a second attack (unless the fumble makes Sharn ineligible to do so). Sharn forgoes the standard attack for a 2nd KO attempt:

    1st) 9+15=24
    2nd) 9+11=21
    3rd) 9+9=18
    I calculate the creatures Radiance\SW DC\Saves as

    F = 19
    R = 20
    W = 12

    +5 to each for size

    Sharn succeeds at 2 of the 3 KO attempts!

    The Tuskbeast gets beaten about the head from a flurry Raging Wookie chops. He is now DAZED and unable to move for 3 rounds.

    Rakhu is now up
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    navyik

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    Re: The Hunters Hunted

    Post  navyik on Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:49 pm

    Holsters the pistol, readies the rifle again. Overwatch. (If a little distracted by the tusker and wookie baiting show).

    To the duros, "i wont make you march in front again, but you have to help us past your manalorion's perimeter. By now you've no doubt you would be choosing the winning team in doing so..."

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