PF rules questions for the GM

hey Josh,

I have some questions about the 1st lvl spell Chill Touch.  Here is the official wording:

A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.

Look at the wording of the Str damage in bold - I would read that as 1 pt of actual ability damage and not a -1 enchantment to Str.  That would mean that getting touched more than 1 time would stack the -1s.  

now look at the wording on Ray of Enfeeblement

A coruscating ray springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target. The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject's Strength score cannot drop below 1. A successful Fortitude save reduces this penalty by half. This penalty does not stack with itself. Apply the highest penalty instead

this clearly indicates that it does not stack, so without such wording, does Chill Touch stack?
RoE also has a stated duration of 1 rd per level

CT has a duration of Instantaneous - so is that damage permanent?  or does it end when the spell ends?  The spell can be used for 1 time per level, but it isn't clear how long that lasts.  If I am 6th lvl, I could get 6 touches out of the spell, so if combat ends and I still have 2 touches left..... do they just stick around until the next combat?  

The wording on the spells just isn't as clear as it could be.  The initial wording makes Chill Touch seem REALLY powerful for a 1st lvl spell, so that is why I am asking before I use it.

Okay, are we 6th level?

ah, what the hell. I think that 6th level is fine. No higher though.

You can go with the starting money for that level too: 16,000 gp, er, uh, Pounds Stirling (or dollars I guess). From now on, since British money was still the most valuable, we'll just do that as an equivalent.

Sweet! Thanks!

honestly? you'll probably need it.

when you get time, mr GM, please check out the rules on Designing Spells and Research

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/magic/designingSpells.html

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magic.html#_independent-research

Research a Spell

The Core Rulebook allows you to perform spell research, either to create a new spell or learn an existing spell from another source. In the downtime system, the steps for spell research each day are as follows.

   Pay 100 gp × the spell's level for research costs and rare ingredients. You may spend Goods or Magic toward this cost.
   Determine the total days of progress required to complete the research, which is 7 × the spell level.
   Determine the spell research DC, which is 10 + twice the spell's level.
   Attempt a Spellcraft check and a Knowledge check (arcana for an arcane spell, religion for a divine spell) against the spell research DC. You can't take 10 on these checks. You may spend Magic to modify a check result, with 1 point of Magic adding 2 to your total (maximum +10). If both checks succeed, you make 1 day's progress toward completing the spell. When your days of progress equal the total number of days needed, the spell is completed and added to your spellbook or list of spells known.

If either or both spell research checks fail by 4 or less, you make no progress. For each check that fails by 5 or more, your research has led to poor results and you lose a day of progress toward completing the spell.



I think they are pretty clear, but I just wanted to give you a heads-up that I will be designing some new Necro spells, according to UM, for research done up to lvl 6 and take the costs from my starting gold.  


And in case anyone wasn't aware, there are full rules for "re-training" just about anything, including class granted feats

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/downtime/downtimeActivities.html

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/retraining.html

I'll answer that later but we are NOT using ultimate campaign rules in regards to Kingdom Building or anything associated with that. The rest is fair game (just please run any weird changes by me first)

What type of weapon is a stake? Simple, martial?

exotic

whit10 wrote:exotic

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedGear.html#_wooden-stake

simple, according to PF, unless of course the GM changes it


also under Dhampir Race

The following equipment is used or made by dhampirs.

Heartstake Bolts: Specially crafted from solid darkwood, heartstake bolts are specifically designed to slay vampires. A heartstake bolt can be fired from any crossbow, but it imposes a –2 penalty on the attack roll and halves the range increment of the weapon. A vampire struck with a heartstake bolt takes the normal damage but must also succeed at a DC 20 Fortitude saving throw or fall to the ground helpless for 1 round. While the vampire is helpless in this manner, a creature can attempt to use the heartstake bolt to finish off the vampire by driving it through the vampire's heart as a full-round action. Once the debilitating effect of the heartstake bolt has ended, the vampire can pull out the bolt as a move action. A vampire slain with a heartstake bolt is subject to the rules and limitations of slaying a vampire with a wooden stake as described under vampire weaknesses .

A heartstake bolt deals normal damage for the crossbow of its type.

Neck Guard: Made from hardened leather reinforced with a band of metal, this collar protects the wearer against vampire bites when worn around the throat. It provides a +1 armor bonus to AC against vampire bites or similar attacks that specifically target the wearer's throat. Unlike most armor bonuses, the neck guard's +1 bonus stacks with the armor bonus of light or medium armor, but it provides no additional bonus when worn with heavy armor.

Vampire Slayer's Kit: This small, latched wooden case contains numerous tools and devices used in hunting and slaying vampires. It contains 10 cloves of garlic, four masterwork wooden stakes, a hammer, a silvered mirror, 4 vials of holy water, 1 application of silversheen, and a masterwork holy symbol. It also contains numerous regents and powders used for treating wounds and making wards, salves, and other concoctions. In addition to its general usefulness, when displayed, a vampire slayer's kit grants its owner a +2 bonus on all Charisma-based skill checks made to investigate or seek out vampires.

Heartstake bolts (5) 100 gp 3 lbs.
Neck guard 10 gp 1/4 lb.
Vampire slayer's kit 500 gp 8 lbs.

simple for a normal attack, must be a critical (and confirmed) for any kind of attack to the heart on a vamp.

I think that's the balance I'm looking for. Nice find Chris

any thoughts on Chill Touch from the first post?

it is important as it will affect if\whether I need to spend time\money on researching a custom spell

I'm going to have to look through a couple things but here are my initial thoughts.

Chill Touch: yes, the damage is as it is stated. Each attack does the normal damage and the Strength damage (the Fort save is really easy, DC = 11 plus any other bonuses - not really that high normally).

Ray of Enfeeblement. That is temporary damage and so it WOULD stack with damage from other sources, just not with multiple Rays of Enfeeblement. Remember, you can only use Chill touch once per level so there are some restrictions.

whit10 wrote:I'm going to have to look through a couple things but here are my initial thoughts.

Chill Touch:  yes, the damage is as it is stated.  Each attack does the normal damage and the Strength damage (the Fort save is really easy, DC = 11 plus any other bonuses - not really that high normally).

Ray of Enfeeblement.  That is temporary damage and so it WOULD stack with damage from other sources, just not with multiple Rays of Enfeeblement.  Remember, you can only use Chill touch once per level so there are some restrictions.

so the Str damage is permanent AND stacks, ok

***EDIT**** I found my own answer, unless the GM wants to change it

Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round.

Generally speaking, when you cast the spell it ends after your touch attack attempt (regardless). Most touch attack spells are the same, the end when you attack

I'm not sure I'm following your question as you could only use two Chill Touches in the same round if you have Quicken Spell... only one spell a round, remember?

I don't know what you mean by 'holding the other five'. That restriction is a per/day one as I read it

whit10 wrote:Generally speaking, when you cast the spell it ends after your touch attack attempt (regardless).  Most touch attack spells are the same, the end when you attack

I'm not sure I'm following your question as you could only use two Chill Touches in the same round if you have Quicken Spell... only one spell a round, remember?

I don't know what you mean by 'holding the other five'.  That restriction is a per/day one as I read it

You are missing the point of Chill Touch.  I get 7 touches when I cast the spell.  I can use it round after round after round after round.....  for 7 rounds.

again the spell description

A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.

otherwise it would be scaled like Shocking Grasp to do lvl x d6 damage all at once

*edit* or are you suggesting that I can cast the spell and then make 7 touches in a single round?

ah, my mistake. That does seem kinda silly for a 1st level spell (though, again, the Save DC is easy) just remember, if you get into melee range, so do they

That is a weird description, I'll look through stuff tonight or at lunch to see if I can figure the duration out. Otherwise, it would seem that when you cast it, it just lasts until you use all of your attacks.

Although, it could be simpler, I believe that you can only have one spell (of that nature) going at one time so maybe that's the extra restriction. Sure, you can use it up to 7 times, unless you cast a different offensive spell

absolutely correct, that IS the catch, I can't cast any other spell at all while I have that touch spell going.

But here is my plan, just so I am being clear:

round 1: I cast Chill Touch with Metamagic feat Reach Spell +1 as a 2nd level spell, using the blood infusion "Sickening". Chill Touch now has a range of 25ft + 5ft\2 lvls or 40ft as a ranged touch attack. I have a total of 7 charges. My familiar can also be a "toucher". I can attempt a touch on 1 target in the same round I cast as a free action and my familiar can also attempt 1 touch as his standard action, using up 2 touches assuming they both hit the same target = 1d6+3 negative energy damage each, -2 Str and Sickened for 2 rounds.

DC 18 = 10 + 1 + 6 Cha + 1 necro focus

that uses up 2 touches per round, so I can run this train for 3 rounds, during the 4th round, my familiar gets the 7th touch and I am free to cast something else

this should be 100% legit, as I read the rules

As near as I can tell, that's entirely legit. I'll double check it later but I see no problems

as a spell research item, I want to design a spell that is nearly identical to Chill Touch, but WITHOUT the -1 to str ability damage

would it be a fair trade off to remove the ability drain to make the spell have a range of close instead of touch?

or make it d8 damage code instead of d6, but leave it as a touch?


or what would you suggest would be a fair trade off for removing the ability damage aspect?

ok, now you're really going to have to give me time to do research. I am very unfamiliar with the spell creation rules and I've been meaning to read through that (just forgot to last night). I will look that over tonight for sure and get back to you.

My initial thought is that it should be fine.

I can set a start date for this campaign around or on July 5th. Three day weekend that week so I think I'll be ready by then. I'll have more posted as this week goes along, please feel free to ask any questions.

WooooHoooo!!!!

we are actually going to get to play PF and Vampire   

whit10 wrote:fighters... completely changed.  IF you want to play a normal, medieval style fighter, go ahead (though I can't imagine why).  If, however, you want to play a modern fighter, you will play the Soldier Archetype that I'm partially lifting from SW.  You lose all armor and shield proficiency except light armor and you lose the bonus feat at 1st level (you still get one every level thereafter unless you multi-class or something to screw up the progression).  In place of those, you gain proficiency with all gun classes: pistols, shotguns, rifles, light machine guns (tommy-gun anyone?)  You will also lose proficiency with any sort of crossbow but you will keep bows (people still bowhunt at this time but I'm almost certain that crossbows were no longer in use. Those came back after modern materials made them useful again and you had nerds like us starting SCA, lol).  You will also get Gun Training (as per the Gunslinger) at 4th level, 8th level, 12th level and 16th level.  You can't use the Grit powers (unless you take Amateur Gunslinger) but you're still almost as good with guns as a Gunslinger. Weapon Training stays as is, Armor Training is lost; light armor doesn't drop movement anyway. 

Otherwise, shotguns and pistols are a simple weapon for purposes of all other classes EXCEPT Barbarian, in which case they are all exotic weapons.  You do not get to add your Dex. bonus to damage (like a GS or Fighter-Soldier) but they are so common that they count as simple weapons.  For balance, I'm making Rifles and Machine Guns martial weapons.  Light artillery pieces and heavy machine guns will be their own martial weapon feat if you so choose to take them.  Things like flamethrowers will be considered exotic weapons given their rarity.  Remember: planes, trains and automobiles are now VERY common but horses, mules and camels are still used by large numbers of people around the world.  We are also going to use a form of Defence Class bonus. Each fighting class: Fighter, Gunslinger, Samurai, Paladin, Ranger and Cavalier

Lifted from the world and stats page..

So if I wanted to make a rogue investigator/spy, would shotguns/pistols/bolt action rifles count as simple (martial?) weapons?

I wanted my guy to be a Great War vet-turned-investigator seeking to align with one of your world groups. Proficiency with a Springfield 1903 and handguns such as Colt 1911 or .38 caliber revolver seems reasonable..

Also, would you allow a human rogue to swap out two Exceptional Abilities I don't really care about, such as Trap sense +2 & 3 (gained at 6th & 9th levels) for the Gunslinger's Gun Training 1 & 2 (normally gained by Gunslingers at 5th & 9th levels)?

Actually, nevermind. I'll just use the Soldier-Modern fighter template you laid out. That makes good sense.

whit10 wrote:ah, what the hell.  I think that 6th level is fine.  No higher though.

You can go with the starting money for that level too:  16,000 gp, er, uh, Pounds Stirling (or dollars I guess).  From now on, since British money was still the most valuable, we'll just do that as an equivalent.  

how many points are we spending on attributes?

25 - The Epic Level one from the chart

As far as equipment goes, where do I look to find available weapons and ammunition? Costs in £ sterling?

I won't tax you for mundane stuff or gear. Use the costs in the book and just consider 1 gp = an english pound (or US dollar) I don't want to deal with exchange rates. lol

Thinking hard about adding the werewolf template on top of my guy.. looks pretty standard & easy to do from what I read in the bestiary. Would that be ok? And if so, are there any adjustments to the rules you wanna make?

yikes, I actually nixed that option a bit ago. Sorry that I forgot to post it!

It creates too many problems and they are sort of overpowered at this point.

Gimme a day to think about it

whit10 wrote:yikes, I actually nixed that option a bit ago.  Sorry that I forgot to post it!

It creates too many problems and they are sort of overpowered at this point.

Gimme a day to think about it

Oh, guess I missed that, sorry. You're right, it does seem pretty awesomely powerful.

Depending on when Matt decides he's done with the Mythic campaign, we can start preparing for WoD in the next week or two here. Please, unless I've missed something, let me know when your characters are done or if you have any more questions. I'd like to have everything fleshed out as much as possible within the next week (at least in theory).

I'll try to have the rest of my background submitted for checking & review within the next couple days.

cool! I want to make sure that I emphasize that this will be more story-driven and therefor, role playing driven. Social skills (Diplo. Bluff, etc.) and Knowledge skills will be very useful. If you don't normally get a lot of skill points, just think about what skills your guy would sort of specialize in.

Knowledge Engineering will be expanded a bit (still working on that one though)

Great! that fits with the classic style of Vampire and World of Darkness genre.

GM - are there any new knowledges or updated ones for the 1920s era or the WoD ?

We will do this to save time... Knowledge Nobility: can be used to to learn about the social, not just financial, elites in any society. Knowledge Local: may be used to find out information about a single city, but can be used to learn all sorts of knowledge about that city. I will update this tonight as I meant to do this a while ago and forgot. Sorry (bad GM!)

Since I never actually posted it, Werewolves are out for now... too powerful and unbalancing.

(at least for today) I am going to play a dwarven 'street samuri' saboteur\merc character, new post for RMA

I think at this point, it would be helpful for folks to ask whatever question they need to get their characters figured out. If you need more background info (and I've just forgotten to provide something) just let me know.

You will be starting in Alexandria, Egypt but there will be room for background stories as to how you got there. That will be the actual starting point.

I'm going to be really busy this weekend but can probably work on this on Sunday.

All that being said, I can run some OPFOR stuff instead until Matt wants to run one more encounter before his school starts or we can just continue playing this... I'm open to whatever but figure that I'll be running WoD when Matt is back in school.

whit10 wrote:I think at this point, it would be helpful for folks to ask whatever question they need to get their characters figured out.  If you need more background info (and I've just forgotten to provide something) just let me know.

You will be starting in Alexandria, Egypt but there will be room for background stories as to how you got there.  That will be the actual starting point.

I'm going to be really busy this weekend but can probably work on this on Sunday.

All that being said, I can run some OPFOR stuff instead until Matt wants to run one more encounter before his school starts or we can just continue playing this... I'm open to whatever but figure that I'll be running WoD when Matt is back in school.

Sweet. I hadn't seen that there was this much movement on WOD.

Josh - I reccomend we poll the group, with the options being
1) Start WOD now
or
2) Start WOD after one more Epic encounter

What do you think?

ALSO -

6th level right? Anything else I should know?

I'm fine with that but I would like to see at least one more thing for Epic if not two. I'd really like to play a different guy and I'm more than willing to run something so that you can play too.

yes, 6th level. The only other thing that I would like to amend is allowing the Summoner. One, I think they're broken... badly. Two, it doesn't sound like anyone was going to play them so, it shouldn't be a big deal. Three, this allows for them to be a type of bad guy (or something like that). Cavalier is the only other banned class since they just don't fit in this world. Ninja and Samurai are not banned but I'm going to need some heavy reasoning why you're playing one. Again, for what it's worth, those two classes are not banned, just Cavalier and Summoner, unless you hit me with an idea that really needs Cavalier and it can be justified.

Yeah, I'd like to do another Epic or two as well. The 'Stargate' format makes for quick play one-offs that stand alone while still being part of a bigger storyline. I dig it.

I'm also looking forward to rolling on WoD. Got my guy built, story written, and a couple final skill point tweaks will make me ready.

I guess I could use a bit more info on the WoD world feel.. will we be playing this out in city streets, drawing rooms and parlors? Or will we be setting off into rugged wilderness? Not looking for a spoiler or anything, just curious what direction I should take my skill points in.

The plan was for encounters in cities, back alleys, deserts, forests, etc.

this might be on hold after what I read through this weekend though, both on the forum and the emails.

background info up for JT Vickers. info taken from numerous web sources

a couple GM questions....

looking at my skill points, since the concept changed a bit

demolitions - just making sure we are using the skill as written in SW (pg82), which includes setting and building

would 5 ranks Know Chemistry and\or Know Engineering give a +2 skill synergy to Demo, Chem for building, Engineering for setting?

Favored Enemy - in this world, is Human too broad? Assuming it is, can I choose Undead based on his exposure in the War?

I am just trying to finalize the little details, including $$ for explosives and\or materials

Human - Favored Enemy... yeah, gonna need a modification to that, nice catch. How about this? Human is fine but you have to choose a sub-type as well: Military, Magical (why not?), Scoundrel, or something like that. Yes, you can choose Undead if you wish, Lycanthropes as well

Demolitions, yes, those are the rules I was going with. Synergies - I would allow a +2 for Knowledge: Engineering, 5 ranks at least for Demo checks. That seems fair. They kinda did away with skill synergies in PF, mostly anyway, since they restructured how they worked and consolidated several skills. Since Demo is a SW skill, I think that's fair.

Are all of the non-human races discriminated against?

It depends. In cities like Paris...no. In the backwaters of many nations, discrimination varies from something similar to Southern Segregation (which, incidentally, the U.S. allows) to just outright hatred or hostility. It can vary with location and region though. Asia, mostly, has too many problems to be bothered about it. Britain tries to play the hero and guarantee equality under the law (sort of) but it's akin to how they treated most of the colonial people at the time. The French are mostly just snobby towards them and treat them with disdain... but it also depends on the Race. Elves and Dwarves are far more accepted than say, something like an Half-Orc or Orc.

Does that help?

Yes sir, thanks!