PF rules questions for the GM

**Chris** Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:53 pm

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Post n°51

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Chris Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:53 pm

As an MMO aside, Archeage is in Beta right now, releasing soon, but they have taken an approach that I would love to see realized in pen&paper games. There are NO classes anymore. There are 12 trees of abilities that reflect the common abilities found in classes and you can freely mix and match any 3 into what we would consider a 'profession'.

The ability trees are things like Battle Rage (all melee combat abilities\feats), Vitalism (all healing\buffing), Occult (opposite, harm\de-buff), sorcery (arcane power), shadowplay (all stealth, inviso, etc), archery (all ranged combat abilities\feats), etc etc.

So depending on how you combine the 3 trees and how many points you put into each tree, you can create nearly infinite custom classes. Some abilities still have pre-reqs, so you need to invest more points into some trees and you can't just cherry pick.

Radiance was a step closer to this idea, but it is still stuck in 'class abilities'. Imagine a system similar to Radiance, but with the depth of complexity in PF and an open ability system. It would be like having unlimited access to 3 full classes and not suffering the penalties of multiclassing. I know it sounds OP, but everyone still has essentially 20 levels, for example, to play with. So you could still get access to 8th level spells, but maybe only cast 1 per day instead of 3 and in exchange get 2 advanced Rogue talents, instead of 5.

some examples:

melee + defense + vitalism = paladin

melee + defense + occult = ill rigger

ranged + vitalism + stealth = harrier\ranger

shadow + melee + occult = sith warrior

occult + stealth + vitalism = vampiric necromancer

sorcery + melee + defense = battlemage

shadow + melee + ranged = assassin

vitalism + sorcery + occult = mystic theurge

whit10 Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:33 pm

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Post n°52

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

whit10 Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:33 pm

I guess that's fine if you want to play a video game. This sort of thing is why my interest in gaming is dying.

but to each their own

**Chris** Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:48 pm

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Post n°53

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Chris Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:48 pm

whit10 wrote:I guess that's fine if you want to play a video game. This sort of thing is why my interest in gaming is dying.

but to each their own

PF rules questions for the GM - Page 2 Fearch10

whit10 Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:56 pm

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Post n°54

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

whit10 Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:56 pm

Chris, just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they fear change. But by all mean, keep being a dick

**Chris** Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:45 pm

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Post n°55

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Chris Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:45 pm

whit10 wrote:Chris, just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they fear change. But by all mean, keep being a dick

Josh, just because you have insomnia and are grouchy and irritable when someone makes a joke, doesn't mean they are being a dick, ya dick geek

**MAS** Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:21 pm

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Post n°56

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

MAS Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:21 pm

whit10 wrote:I guess that's fine if you want to play a video game. This sort of thing is why my interest in gaming is dying.

but to each their own

I guess I don't see why eschewing classes is video-gamey at all, several very successful RPGs have done it. What specifically about having more options and being able to fully customize a character is bad?

Are you stating that increasing options is somehow spoiling the gaming experience for you?

**Chris** Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:34 pm

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Post n°57

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Chris Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:34 pm

I didn't want to clog up your fight and I don't really care if JT gets hit.

I do want to raise the same issue with you that I did with Matt in his Epic fight regarding obstacles and targeting of magic spells.

Assuming this guy cast Scorching Ray, it says under Magic, (p) Aiming a Spell

Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don't have to see the creature you're trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature at which you're aiming.

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

please refer to your map

JT is at 0609
Olicia is at 0809
enemy is at 2109

regardless of how that looks to the eyes on the map, that is a straight line. Olivia is directly blocking his Line of Effect and acting as in intervening object per the Ray-specific rules.

Just as a point of rules, I don't believe the mage can target JT with a ray. Magic Missles, sure. Lightning bolt, sure since it passes through Olivia. But not a ray or any spell with a point of origin at JT.

whit10 Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:49 pm

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Post n°58

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

whit10 Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:49 pm

You are correct, good catch. I'm amending it on the encounter page.

**Chris** Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:39 am

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Post n°59

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Chris Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:39 am

while we are at it.... summon monster is also being played incorrectly. read the casting time - it is 1 full round. I had this discussion with Matt too, I think the rule is stupid, but you don't actually summon the monster until the FOLLOWING round.

ie

round 1
mage starts chanting and waving his arms - 1 full round "hey everyone look at me, I am casting a summoning spell"
everyone else acts

round 2 - at the start of the mage's turn, the summoned creature appears and can act immediately
mage gets his full actions for this round

whit10 Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:42 am

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Post n°60

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

whit10 Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:42 am

....again, they were invisible. Nobody heard the verbal component of the spell. It is not being played incorrectly. (though Rob's might have been) I'll let it go for now but yes, that's how it normally works... unless there is something else involved.

**Chris** Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:51 am

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Post n°61

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Chris Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:51 am

whit10 wrote:....again, they were invisible. Nobody heard the verbal component of the spell. It is not being played incorrectly. (though Rob's might have been) I'll let it go for now but yes, that's how it normally works... unless there is something else involved.

I figured the enemy was using Silent Spell or something since we didn't hear him casting the Imp Inviso (twice) or the summon monster from only 75ft away (although this is a high level mage to cast Silent Imp Inviso and have 2 rays, so at least 9th level)

I meant Rob's spell in particular this time

whit10 Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:58 am

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Post n°62

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

whit10 Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:58 am

ah, gotcha.

Depending on how you guys do in this encounter, many things will be revealed.

**Robyo** Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:47 pm

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Post n°63

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Robyo Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:47 pm

From the PRD:
"School conjuration (summoning) [see text]; Level bard 1, cleric 1, sorcerer/wizard 1

Casting Time 1 round

Components V, S, F/DF (a tiny bag and a small candle)

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Effect one summoned creature

Duration 1 round/level (D)

Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st Level list on Table 10–1. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can choose a different one each time you cast the spell.

A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).

When you use a summoning spell to summon a creature with an alignment or elemental subtype, it is a spell of that type. Creatures on Table 10–1 marked with an “*” are summoned with the celestial template, if you are good, and the fiendish template, if you are evil. If you are neutral, you may choose which template to apply to the creature. Creatures marked with an “*” always have an alignment that matches yours, regardless of their usual alignment. Summoning these creatures makes the summoning spell's type match your alignment."

From what I understand it DOES act on the turn it is summoned. Otherwise it would be a pretty useless spell, which it was already nerfed from 3.5. It doesn't need to be more useless, IMO.

edit: there's no Frequently Asked Questions that I could find concerning Summon Monster spell, but the consensus on most forums is that the summoning takes a full round and the creature pops up the next round. So the spell IS pretty useless.

Last edited by Robyo on Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

**Chris** Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:54 pm

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Post n°64

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Chris Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:54 pm

Robyo wrote:From the PRD:
"School conjuration (summoning) [see text]; Level bard 1, cleric 1, sorcerer/wizard 1

Casting Time 1 round

you already answered your own question, look at the casting time, then check the description under "Casting time"

Casting Time
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.

summoning is a slow process unfortunately

When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell.

honestly, summoning is really overpowered. it is meant to be obvious and interruptible

**Arcturus2** Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:32 pm

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Post n°65

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Arcturus2 Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:32 pm

In rediffer to what's happening on the combat thread-

This is a fun game! I for one am enjoying this campaign. I like the setting and the cast of characters we're using as PCs.

The rules are huge- it's impossible to memorize them all, and the GM has the right to adapt them as he sees fit. I think Josh has been pretty fair about retconning and adjusting things on the fly to keep it a fair, balanced and fun experience.

What's the use of following the letter of the law if we betray the spirit of the law? Example- Garth's mythic vital strike in C1KW. Perfectly legal, but overpowering and unfair as hell. That's a situation where the GM could be like 'ok, that's legal but we're just not doing it.' Every party and game are different, so the rules ought to be a bit flexible, IMO, to accommodate the story. Don't get me wrong, I love rules lawyering as much as anyone, lol.

The rules aren't the story, they just help tell the story, if that makes sense.

I especially enjoy the added depth that giving prior relationships between the PCs has added- CRIII being the manservant of CJC, Elliot and JT being war buddies... I think that so far we've had good chemistry and teamwork and establishing past connections is a mechanic I'll definitely use if i should ever run a campaign.

I dig this story so far.

I dunno. Just my 2 cents. Can't wait to see where we go next!

**Chris** Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:37 pm

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Post n°66

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Chris Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:37 pm

Arcturus2 wrote:
I especially enjoy the added depth that giving prior relationships between the PCs has added- CRIII being the manservant of CJC, Elliot and JT being war buddies... I think that so far we've had good chemistry and teamwork and establishing past connections is a mechanic I'll definitely use if i should ever run a campaign.

I dig this story so far.

+1

whit10 Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:23 pm

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Post n°67

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

whit10 Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:23 pm

just to say it... Garth's Mythic vital strike attack is perfectly legal AND not foolproof at all. If we had fought a dragon in that encounter, for instance, there's a dammed good chance it's AC would be something around 40 or higher. That's hard as hell to hit at any level and they have the HP to soak one of those hits... now, a pally would tear them apart and anything that focuses on ranged touch attacks would also have an easy time. If anything, this game has a millions ways to do something, and a million ways to counter the same actions. It's all in how you build things, both characters and encounters.

... me two farthings

**Arcturus2** Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:34 pm

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Post n°68

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Arcturus2 Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:34 pm

whit10 wrote:just to say it... Garth's Mythic vital strike attack is perfectly legal AND not foolproof at all. If we had fought a dragon in that encounter, for instance, there's a dammed good chance it's AC would be something around 40 or higher. That's hard as hell to hit at any level and they have the HP to soak one of those hits... now, a pally would tear them apart and anything that focuses on ranged touch attacks would also have an easy time. If anything, this game has a millions ways to do something, and a million ways to counter the same actions. It's all in how you build things, both characters and encounters.

... me two farthings

Lol, I never said it was foolproof, just a good example of rules rape.. and he attacks at +39, so it's hard to miss much unless he fumbles. I like crunchy stuff.

I was just saying that the rules are meant to be a guide, and the final arbiter ought to be the GM. If something is legal but fucks up the game, the GM should nix it. If something is slightly outside the rules but improves the overall experience (using SW weapons damage/explosive rules, reskinning, or what have you) then the GM ought to not feel rule bound, but make allowances at his discretion.

whit10 Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:31 pm

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Post n°69

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

whit10 Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:31 pm

oh, I wasn't saying that you did. And I agree with the GM thing for every game. I've had enough ideas shot down to know better.

Damn, didn't realize that your attack bonus was that freakin' high! There's still ways to deal with that... I think? lol

**Chris** Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:19 am

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Post n°70

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Chris Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:19 am

whit10 wrote:
Damn, didn't realize that your attack bonus was that freakin' high! There's still ways to deal with that... I think? lol

mirror image, displacement, imp inviso.... just flying so he can't hit in melee.... debuffs to bring the + down.... etc etc

**MAS** Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:57 am

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Post n°71

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

MAS Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:57 am

whit10 wrote:just to say it... Garth's Mythic vital strike attack is perfectly legal AND not foolproof at all. If we had fought a dragon in that encounter, for instance, there's a dammed good chance it's AC would be something around 40 or higher. That's hard as hell to hit at any level and they have the HP to soak one of those hits... now, a pally would tear them apart and anything that focuses on ranged touch attacks would also have an easy time. If anything, this game has a millions ways to do something, and a million ways to counter the same actions. It's all in how you build things, both characters and encounters.

... me two farthings

+1

whit10 Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:57 pm

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Post n°72

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

whit10 Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:57 pm

I'm considering adding something to Crit and fumble rules for this game (not during the present encounter of course).

What would you guys think about, when rolling 1s or 20s, the following rules apply....

If you roll a 1 after that first 1, something bad happens to you (drop a weapon, fall flat on your ass while trying a jump attack, etc.)

If you roll a 20 on the crit confirmation check, not only to you confirm the hit (like normal) but you also do max damage for the weapon (just the weapon)

thoughts??

**Chris** Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:13 pm

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Post n°73

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Chris Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:13 pm

sure, for as often as it happens 1 : 400 it shouldn't affect gameplay very much

whit10 wrote:
If you roll a 20 on the crit confirmation check, not only to you confirm the hit (like normal) but you also do max damage for the weapon (just the weapon)

I am not following the underlined part.... wouldn't max wpn damage be the same as max total damage?

from PF
Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

maybe I am misunderstanding, but if you swing a 2H axe (20x3) and your normal damage is 1d12 +10

a regular crit = (1d12+10) + (1d12+10) + (1d12+10) = 3d12 +30

so a max crit would be 36 + 30

whit10 Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:23 pm

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Post n°74

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

whit10 Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:23 pm

you'd normally get all of that by my idea but no max damage on stuff like sneak attack, elemental damage... stuff like that.

**Arcturus2** Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:10 pm

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Post n°75

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Arcturus2 Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:10 pm

I've always liked the idea of fumble tables.. maybe not the stuff like 'you accidentally chop your own leg off' or ' you accidentally decapitate the closest friendly' but the tables are cool. Adds an extra little flavor. I say go for it!

whit10 Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:13 pm

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Post n°76

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

whit10 Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:13 pm

yeah, the problem with fumble tables is that they get ridiculous pretty quickly. Again, this is only on the off chance that you roll double 1s or 20s.

**Arcturus2** Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:17 pm

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Post n°77

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Arcturus2 Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:17 pm

Yeah, that sounds cool. I like it. Rolling double 20s or double 1s ought to be extra memorable.

whit10 Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:37 pm

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Post n°78

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

whit10 Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:37 pm

The crit argument notwithstanding, the current encounter brings something up. I've always been of the opinion, and I'm sure I've brought it up before, that drawing a wand out is akin to drawing a dagger or any other one handed weapon that you can pull out as a part of a move action if you have a +1 BAB or higher. It's still a standard or whatever action to actually cast the spell. It just seems silly to me that there's much of a difference.

The group's views on this subject...??

**Chris** Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:56 pm

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Post n°79

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Chris Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:56 pm

whit10 wrote:The crit argument notwithstanding, the current encounter brings something up. I've always been of the opinion, and I'm sure I've brought it up before, that drawing a wand out is akin to drawing a dagger or any other one handed weapon that you can pull out as a part of a move action if you have a +1 BAB or higher. It's still a standard or whatever action to actually cast the spell. It just seems silly to me that there's much of a difference.

The group's views on this subject...??

I think as long as you are consistent, it is fine. Normally wands\potions\scrolls\etc cannot be drawn with Quick Draw or as part of a move, only weapons.

I agree with you that they are all relatively the same size and it isn't practically more difficult. The only argument I can see is that a weapon is usually in an actual sheath and the wand\scroll\potion is just in a pocket or whatever making it harder to pull out quickly.

I am fine with it, as long as it applies to all small items equally and all can be used with Quick Draw and as part of a move. I think you also end up having to allow all such items to be "quick sheathed" as well, since that is already a house rule.

**Chris** Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:54 pm

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Post n°80

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Chris Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:54 pm

just so everyone can see.... here are the 2 rules that are at intersection in our current fight

Line of Effect:

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin).

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.

Cover\Soft Cover:

Cover

To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.

Total Cover: If you don't have line of effect to your target (that is, you cannot draw any line from your square to your target's square without crossing a solid barrier), he is considered to have total cover from you. You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover.

For all of PF's density, there is no single and clear definition of "Line of Sight". I have even researched this on the PF forums and there is much disagreement about LoS vs LoE.

our scene is complicated by factors like a ramp, differences in elevation, the Large Snake being long, but not tall enough to block LoS, Elliot actually has x2 soft cover if you count the Eagle\Ork but the eagle is small, etc etc etc

cheers

I think Josh has done a solid and fair job of sorting all this out so far!

whit10 Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:25 pm

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Post n°81

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

whit10 Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:25 pm

thanks

**Chris** Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:14 am

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Post n°82

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Chris Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:14 am

question for any and all GMs or arm-chair GMs.....

In PF, what type of action is it to change your grip on a weapon?

for example:

a foolish 1st level elven archer forgot all his proper melee weapons at home and has now run out of arrows after dropping 3 of 4 orc bandits. on his turn, he decides to use his bow as an improvised melee wpn (-4 to hit, reduced damage club). he needs to change his 2 handed grip from his normal ranged weapon firing positions of having 1 hand in the middle of the bow and 1 hand on the bowstrings to using 2 hands and swinging the bow shaft like a club.

what type of action is changing his grip?

some options:

Free Action - like dropping an item, notch an arrow?

Move action - like drawing\sheathing a weapon, picking up an item, manipulating a lever?

**Robyo** Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:06 am

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Post n°83

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Robyo Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:06 am

I vote for a Free Action. But I'm not so into splitting hairs about rules minutiae and usually prefer whatever works quickest, seems fair, and makes the player character look like an epic hero (or utter fool).

Furthermore, I don't see reason to penalize someone for using their favored weapon in a non-traditional way. A gunslinger or a bow-master would be quite familiar with the physical aspects and capabilities of their tools. They would know how to pistol-whip or clobber somebody with it. The -4 penalty improvised weapon usage seems overly harsh.

Though I can understand the penalty if the character is using a random chair or a broken bottle. Unless you built a character centered around utilizing found (or stolen) objects. An improvisational brawler type. The drunken master!

Has anyone seen the new Hercules (starring The Rock)? The amazon companion in it used a bow, but it had blades on the ends. Useful for close-combat and pretty badass.

No reason why you can't affix bayonets to rifles in PF.

whit10 Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:49 am

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Post n°84

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

whit10 Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:49 am

That's a free action to me (and one damned obscure question).

**navyik** Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:14 pm

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Post n°85

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

navyik Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:14 pm

Look at bastard swords and double weapons. There are other rules for 2 hands on a 1 handed weapon. I think if they intended this as an action they would have said so.

Imagine flipping the dagger you just used to stab a goblin, holding it by the blade and throwing it at another. There are many common scenarios for which the rules could have covered this but are silent. It isnt an action at all.

**Chris** Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:59 pm

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Post n°86

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Chris Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:59 pm

Robyo wrote:
Furthermore, I don't see reason to penalize someone for using their favored weapon in a non-traditional way. A gunslinger or a bow-master would be quite familiar with the physical aspects and capabilities of their tools. They would know how to pistol-whip or clobber somebody with it. The -4 penalty improvised weapon usage seems overly harsh.

I agree that they may know how to use it, but it is also a mechanical issue - the arrow is not designed as a dagger, thus functions poorly in that role. Nor is a bow designed as a club (breakage?). The bladed bow could easily be an exotic wpn.

Robyo wrote:I vote for a Free Action.

+1

whit10 wrote:That's a free action to me (and one damned obscure question).

+1
yes, I am going somewhere with this, so not really obscure Wink

navyik wrote:Look at bastard swords and double weapons. There are other rules for 2 hands on a 1 handed weapon. I think if they intended this as an action they would have said so.

Imagine flipping the dagger you just used to stab a goblin, holding it by the blade and throwing it at another. There are many common scenarios for which the rules could have covered this but are silent. It isnt an action at all.

A good point. There are actually some rules that address it. A Pole Master (fighter) has an ability that replaces bravery

Pole Fighting (Ex): At 2nd level, as an immediate action, a polearm master can shorten the grip on his spear or polearm with reach and use it against adjacent targets. This action results in a –4 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon until he spends another immediate action to return to the normal grip. The penalty is reduced by –1 for every four levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces bravery.

as a special ability it allows him to do it as an immediate (interrupt) action, which is the same speed as a swift action, but it allows him to do it when it isn't his turn (important difference)

I think it is a Swift Action

Last edited by Chris on Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:37 pm; edited 6 times in total

**Chris** Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:33 pm

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Post n°87

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

Chris Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:33 pm

Back to my objection to using a ranged weapon as an improvised melee weapon for the purposes of an AoO.

First, I am going to post the AoO rules, just for quick reference with some comments.

Attack of Opportunity

Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.

important parts:

(A) You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack

(B) If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity. (not counting "armed unarmed" like monks or with the feat)

I have 2 objections:

1) Holding a ranged weapon and using it as a ranged weapon is different than holding it and using it as an improvised melee weapon. Holding a bow and using it as a ranged weapon means that you are NOT holding the bow as a club\staff and using it as a melee weapon. The same logic applies to holding an arrow with 2 fingers by the back of the arrow or holding a spellbook open so you can read it.

YES - If you just whacked the nearest ork with your bow in melee - then yes, you are using it as a melee weapon and can (during the orc's turn) use it to make an AoO. (same for arrows, etc) This satisfies both (A) and (B)

NO - If you are not holding the ranged weapon as an improvised melee weapon, then you cannot make a melee attack (fails A) with it and are considered unarmed for melee purposes (B).

Think about it this way.... at the moment the enemy provokes the AoO, you are not capable of making a melee attack (you are holding it as a ranged weapon) and thus not threatening any nearby spaces. You would have to change your grip on the weapon for it to be used as an improvised melee attack and thus to threaten the squares. This is not the case, at the moment the enemy takes his provoking action.

2) You can only take Free or Swift Actions during your own turn (exception noted for speech)

You could not "change your grip" on the weapon, as a swift (or free) action, when it is not your turn.

Pole Fighting (Ex): At 2nd level, as an immediate action, a polearm master can shorten the grip on his spear or polearm with reach and use it against adjacent targets.

This is specifically an immediate action that a fighter has a special ability which allows him to do this. No one else is allowed to change their grip as an immediate action, since no one else has this ability (with a pole arm or any other weapon).

Immediate Action: An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn.

Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.

I think changing your grip on a weapon is thus a Swift Action. It is only doable during your turn and only once per turn, which eliminates the obvious (and dumb) loophole of changing your grip at the start and end of your turns, so that you can play baseball with your bow.

whit10 Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:05 pm

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Post n°88

Re: PF rules questions for the GM

whit10 Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:05 pm

I have no specific objection to anything you said. Sounds fine to me.

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