Shivak VS Spike duel map

No one has surprise, you both see each other and intentions are plain.... it's clobberin time!

Roll initiative = initiative dice + initiative rating (intuition + reaction)

Target Numbers are always 5 (barring unusual modifiers)  count your 5s and add to your initiative rating

Spike 12d + 12
Shivak 9d + 9

then I will sequence action phases into Initiative Passes



Figure the cars are about 5 ft tall and will count as hard cover

Please don't take my word for law here, I am as much a learner with this system.  I expect you to double check  and question me

I didn't specify this earlier, but it was my intention to have you both 'ready' for combat.  You each have whatever objects in your hands to start that you wish, drawn and ready to fight.


Combat Turn 1

Initiative Pass (IP) 1

Spike 17
Shivak 14

IP 2
Spike 17

IP 3
Spike 17

IP 4
Spike 17

Spike is up

whit10 wrote:just a quick question, does the Spell Increased Reflexes go immediately into effect, therefore, I'll get more passes?

Funny.... I had the book open to that page already

Increase Reflexes
Type: P • Range: T • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 2
This spell increases the reflexes (Initiative and Initiative Passes) of
a voluntary subject. Each level of increase adds +1 Initiative and +1
Initiative Pass. The caster must achieve a certain threshold for each level:
Threshold 2: +1 Initiative, + 1 Initiative Pass
Threshold 3: +2 Initiative, + 2 Initiative Passes
Threshold 4 (max.): +3 Initiative, + 3 Initiative Passes
A character can only be affected by a single Increase Reflexes spell
at a time; the maximum IPs any character can have is 4.

I don't see any reason that it wouldn't go into immediate effect.  Let's say you got 3 successes, thus earning +2 initiative and +2 passes, then instantly your initiative # changes (order per pass) and you gain additional passes.

Honestly, the spell would be pretty worthless if it didn't work that way.  You'd be dead before the next combat turn started, with the way SR combat works

navyik wrote:Other modifiers change initiative in the middle of a pass.  I concur, the spell should add passes to the turn in which it is cast, and it can alter the order.

see above, Spike gets to start

navyik wrote:How big is a hex? He will center with gun kata to remove range penalties.  Free action.

5ft is the standard for a hex sq.   The old d20 SW used meters, so a hex was 2m.  SR it appears also uses meters.

I count that you are 18 hexes or 36 meters from Shivak, which looks like Long Range or -3 to hit

that would reduce each of your shots by 3 dice, so each shot would drop to 5 dice and need to be rerolled.

I think I follow the Adept Centering of Gun Kata (nice crunch), which would reduce any negative penalties by 3 (your initiate grade)

Ok, I think that all works.....

Shivak needs to make 4 Reaction rolls, 1 for each shot.  the shots have  net hits of 2, 2, 3 and 4.  

Damn, SPIKE is going all Jango Fett on Obi Wann here

any of those that you Shivak doesn't beat go to damage of 6P + net hits, soaked with Body + Armor (-2)

Shivak could use Full Defense as an interrupt and add his Dodge or more likely his Lightsaber Parry\Reflect, but that would use up his action later in this IP

whit10 wrote:

I see that as 1 missed 'hit'... so I have one normal hit to roll my armor and body against?

total of 12 dice (4 Body, 8 armor)

Roll(12d6)+0:
3,6,5,5,6,2,2,2,6,4,6,2,+0

6 hits... no idea what that does

I think you are correct (nice dice) but Alan's shots are -2AP, so your armor only counts as 6, not 8

damage is 6P, since you bought off 2\3 hits, if I am reading it right

you need to reroll your soak with the armor change and then calculate (if) any damage on your health boxes and wound penalties (if any)


**on the first roll, you would have completely soaked the damage**

whit10 wrote:Shivak is probably screwed here no matter what... this isn't how he fights, this is why I had suggested a mock fight, not a duel.  This guy was never meant to be killer...

uh, so you can draw two weapons and get four shots off on the first goddamned action?  Doesn't that seem a bit overblown?

Chris wrote:

navyik wrote:Sure.  I will rip him apart!

whit10 wrote:lol.. I'd like to see you try.  

Pretty sure Chris meant for us to have a test encounter, not an actual fight between PCs

sounds like you both want to fight each other, fine with me.  I will build an arena setting for you.  

sorry, I thought it was mutual.  either way, it is just a test fight to learn about the rules

and yeah, these characters were supposed to emulate PF\3.x of about 9th-10th level, so that seems about right to me. SR is built for shooting, so I expect to see a hail storm of blaster fire.... which makes a lightsaber wielder who can parry those shots, also very powerful

navyik wrote:Josh suffurs cumulative defense penalties for each attack defended.  He gets 5 dice, then 4, then 3, then 2.  But he should get a skill rating added to reaction.  Either dodge or deflect.

Defender Ha s Defended Against Previous Attacks
If a character has defended against at least one other attack (melee or
ranged) since his last action, apply a –1 cumulative modifier for each
additional defense roll.


good catch, I had missed that one

however, you only get to add dodge\deflect on Full Defense

Defending Against Ranged Comba t
Normally no skill applies to defending against ranged attacks—defending characters simply
roll their Reaction (the defaulting modifier does not apply). However, characters may chose to
go on full defense (p. 160), thereby adding their Dodge (or Gymnastics) skill to the equation.

it is reaction only

which doesn't really seem fair when you look at Melee defense

Defending Against Melee Attacks
Defenders have three choices for defending against unarmed attacks. If
they have a melee weapon in hand, they can parry the attack by rolling
the appropriate weapon skill + Reaction. If they have Unarmed Combat
skill, they can choose to block by rolling .Unarmed Combat + Reaction
Or they can simply dodge out of the way using Dodge + Reaction.
Melee defenders can also choose to go on full defense (p. 160),
and add Dodge skill dice to their defense roll.

I am not sure why you don't get Dodge\Deflect + Reaction vs ranged.....  maybe something to fix with a house rule?

A full defense option would include either adding dodge + deflect + reaction (like melee) or going Deflect + Reaction - and then getting the REDIRECT, which is why it takes the complex action

whit10 wrote:why do I suffer cumulative defensive penalties?  This is just a test, I don't care for that part but that seems really damned powerful?!

Armor and Body soak roll again (adjusted for -2)

Roll(10d6)+0:
4,5,5,5,2,2,6,1,6,6,

that's six hits.... no damage?

ok, no damage, full soak - wow

Alan is correct about the cumulative penalty, but he highlights something else about the system, read above. I think the cumulative penalty wouldn't matter if you also got Dodge\Deflect dice. those would seem more fair, in my mind.

navyik wrote:
Triggers squeezed, (dice pool splits).
8 dice each

46225234  2 hits

23151654  3 hits (defender -1 dice to defend 2nd attack)

Dmg 6p + net hits, AP of -2

2nd simple action:
Continue firing.  Recoil reduced completely.

51342315  2 hits (defender at -2)

64642515  4 hits (defender at -3)
 

Josh, since this is a test, please REROLL your reaction in 2 separate posts.

1st post - reroll ONLY REACTION with the cumulative penalties
5 dice
4 dice
3 dice
2 dice

and note how many shots now hit


2nd post - reroll REACTION + DODGE\DEFLECT (your choice, but no redirect)

14 dice
13 dice
12 dice
11 dice

and note how many shots hit

whit10 wrote:ok, hadn't thought about Dodge.  Nice catch Alan!

so, do I need to re-roll everything or just proceed with my turn?

you DO NOT get to add Dodge, see my post (n*18) above, unless you go on Full Defense.  but please see my most recent post, to test for this

SORRY this is confusing - that is why we are testing !

navyik wrote:His armor is only 6 vs blasters.

whit10 wrote:

Armor and Body soak roll again (adjusted for -2)

Roll(10d6)+0:
4,5,5,5,2,2,6,1,6,6,

we caught that, but good eye

whit10 wrote:2nd post... Reaction + Dodge (I can't deflect because the lightsaber isn't ignited) IF he does the 'full defense' thing, does that sacrifice the ability to do a complex action on his turn so that he can cast?

I'll roll after you clarify

that is what we are exploring here, read this post please. there is a disparity between Ranged and Melee defense

Chris wrote:

navyik wrote:Josh suffurs cumulative defense penalties for each attack defended. He gets 5 dice, then 4, then 3, then 2. But he should get a skill rating added to reaction. Either dodge or deflect.

Defender Ha s Defended Against Previous Attacks
If a character has defended against at least one other attack (melee or
ranged) since his last action, apply a –1 cumulative modifier for each
additional defense roll.


good catch, I had missed that one

however, you only get to add dodge\deflect on Full Defense

Defending Against Ranged Comba t
Normally no skill applies to defending against ranged attacks—defending characters simply
roll their Reaction (the defaulting modifier does not apply). However, characters may chose to
go on full defense (p. 160), thereby adding their Dodge (or Gymnastics) skill to the equation.

it is reaction only

which doesn't really seem fair when you look at Melee defense

Defending Against Melee Attacks
Defenders have three choices for defending against unarmed attacks. If
they have a melee weapon in hand, they can parry the attack by rolling
the appropriate weapon skill + Reaction. If they have Unarmed Combat
skill, they can choose to block by rolling .Unarmed Combat + Reaction
Or they can simply dodge out of the way using Dodge + Reaction.
Melee defenders can also choose to go on full defense (p. 160),
and add Dodge skill dice to their defense roll.

I am not sure why you don't get Dodge\Deflect + Reaction vs ranged..... maybe something to fix with a house rule?

A full defense option would include either adding dodge + deflect + reaction (like melee) or going Deflect + Reaction - and then getting the REDIRECT, which is why it takes the complex action

I would like to see what Shivak's defense looks like if Ranged were treated the same way as Melee defense and you got Reaction + Dodge\Deflect as the standard roll, not as the Full Defense option

navyik wrote:

Chris wrote:

navyik wrote:His armor is only 6 vs blasters.

whit10 wrote:

Armor and Body soak roll again (adjusted for -2)

Roll(10d6)+0:
4,5,5,5,2,2,6,1,6,6,

we caught that, but good eye

So then he only gets 10 dice minus another 2 for AP.  So 8 dice to soak.

stand by, let's deal with 1 issue at a time, then we can look at the armor. ok?

navyik wrote:The weaker ranged defense may be intended to ballance cover bonuses that dont occur in melee.

yeah, that's something to consider too.

melee is already penalized though, since a Melee attack is a Complex action and firing a gun is only a Simple action (not to mention all the burst\auto fire rules for firing multiple times)

but this is why we are looking it at

whit10 wrote:2nd roll then, with Reaction + Dodge/Deflection... -1 cumulative after 1st shot:

Roll(14d6)+0:
5,5,5,5,4,6,6,5,4,3,1,5,1,2,

8 hits, yikes...

Roll(13d6)+0:
4,3,1,5,1,5,5,4,6,1,1,4,1,

4 hits

Roll(12d6)+0:
6,5,5,2,3,6,5,2,5,2,5,6

8 hits... damned dice are being wasted!  lol

Roll(11d6)+0:
2,6,1,4,1,3,4,5,1,3,6

3 hits

that would negate all the shots, yes?

this is DEFLECT though, right?

we can talk about igniting a lightsaber in a minute, but let's go with your assumption that you can't Deflect right now.

Shivak's dodge is only 4 + 5 reaction. you should roll

9d
8d
7d
6d

if you are just Dodging

whit10 wrote:I thought you wanted both... stand by:

Roll(9d6)+0:
5,3,1,6,5,5,2,3,4,

4 hits

Roll(8d6)+0:
6,2,3,1,4,2,6,6,

3 hits

Roll(7d6)+0:
4,1,6,3,5,3,4

2 hits

Roll(6d6)+0:
6,6,4,1,6,2,

3 hits

ok, so back to getting hit once, on the last shot

roll body + armor (-2AP) to soak 6P

whit10 wrote:so that's 8 dice (because I apply the 6 rating and it's -2)?

Roll(8d6)+0:
6,4,3,1,4,6,6,6

damn, good roll...

4 hits.

he has 2 boxes of damage?

yeah, I think that is correct.  I will probably address the armor values, but that can happen later.

I think the intention is that the first\bigger # is to absorb bullets (most common attack) in SR and the 2nd is a catch-all of melee, lasers, etc.

In a SW universe, armor probably would have evolved a bit differently, focusing on absorbing blasters (energy\impact) and not ballistic (firearms).  It is just a matter of technological darwinism.

I think flipping the names of the #\# might make sense, it preserves the built-in balance of the SR damage\soak metrics and is logical in a SW universe.  the first # would be energy and lightsabers\the 2nd # would be ballistics\firearms (less common) and solid melee wpns.

or just making life easier - eliminating the difference and just using 1 # for soaking

whit10 wrote:I actually agree with you and was hoping you would say that... it would make sense that armor is made for the ammunition that it's designed to stop.


So I have 2 boxes of damage, light wound (-1 die) -  that about right?  Is it my turn?

right, remember to adjust your initiative down by -1 now as well. It will change once you cast, but just keep that in the mix

it is Shivak's turn

Shivak's initiative is now +3 -1 (wound) for a net gain of +2 and +3 passes, below should be accurate

Chris wrote:

Combat Turn 1

Initiative Pass (IP) 1

Spike 17
Shivak 16

IP 2
Spike 17
Shivak 16

IP 3
Spike 17
Shivak 16

IP 4
Spike 17
Shivak 16

map is still current, Shivak has ignited his lightsaber and SPIKE has both pistols drawn

Spike is up

whit10 wrote:wait a sec, can't I move too?  I just wanted to make sure the spell stuff was right

no, remember actions are different in SR

please reference pg 146 for a complete list.

I agree that igniting a Lightsaber is a free action
Walk\run is also a free action

you only get 1 Free action per action phase
you can take 2 simple or 1 complex action per AP

Shivak is done

SPIKE didn't get to move (free) b\c he used his free action on centering

whit10 wrote:not sure what I roll with the lightsaber going GM...

depends on what you want to do....

part of which is the issue we were facing earlier, so I understand your confusion

use an Interrupt Full Defense, which uses up your next complex action?

just Reaction [maybe + Dodge] (back to wear you were last time) but preserving your upcoming action

***just what I am thinking at the moment, open to feedback.... I think letting a Jedi\Sith Deflect and Redirect for free is over powered. I think that Deflect\Redirect must be a Full Defense (complex) action, but it can be used as an interrupt.

this is about the same way that SWd20 did it, to use D\R it cost a move action in the following turn.

options include.....

defense vs ranged, as written in SR, reaction only

more consistent house rule, reaction + dodge always

full defense =
reaction + dodge + dodge
or
reaction + dodge + deflect \deflect only, no redirect
or
reaction + deflect + redirect