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    MAS
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    Re: Information

    Post  MAS on Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:53 pm

    Chris wrote:I have read the 5e book, but sometimes they put things in places that I am used to looking (compared to PF, 4e, SW, etc)

    Do casters get any bonus spells per day (spell slots) based on a high casting stat?  

    Does a high INT give extra skill slots?   extra languages?

    is there any way to gain new skills as the character progresses?  (ie, not the 2 chosen at lvl 1)

    feats are only gained in exchange for attribute pts every 4th level?

    No, there are no bonus spell slots from casting ability mods.
    No, it does not grant extra skills or languages.

    This is the big effect it has for wizards, as per PHB =

    "Wizards use Intelligence as their spellcasting ability,
    which helps determine the saving throw DCs of
    spells they cast."

    *

    Interestingly enough, the rule set does not offer a mechanic for gaining proficiency in new skills. It assumes that your time is being spent becoming better in the fields of expertise you specialize in, hence the increase in your proficiency bonus as you advance in levels.

    I think we could add an option to trade the proficiency bonus upgrade on a "level-up" for an additional proficiency. Let me work on that - we have a bit of time before level-up.

    *

    When leveling up (every 4th lvl, as you observed), you can choose to raise one Ability score by 2, two scores by 1, or choose a feat. Many feats include an ability score increase and nifty features to boot!



    Yes, it is streamlined. It depends more on ability checks than skills. Every +1 is important, and modifiers are not going to stack up into the massive heights they do in PF or other 3.5 derived systems.
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    Re: Information

    Post  Chris on Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:12 pm

    Thanks for the replies, that is about what I thought, but I figured I would ask and not assume.

    I think some feats also grant additional skills, like the one Rob got from the zodiac.  

    MAS wrote:
    Yes, it is streamlined. It depends more on ability checks than skills. Every +1 is important, and modifiers are not going to stack up into the massive heights they do in PF or other 3.5 derived systems.

    It is streamlined for sure, but I disagree that every +1 matters.   It matters less in this type of system.  What really matters most is the roll of the d20.  Whether you have +2 or +4 is a small variable compared to a 1-20 range.   So even at MAX levels, a prof bonus of +6 still has very little impact on the outcome compared to the random chance of the dice rolls.  

    In PF\3x, the +X modifier becomes more significant than the roll of the d20, as you can easily get +20 and up on skill checks at higher levels.   The "massive heights" aren't just for funsies, they are meant to reduce the randomness in the determination of success vs failure.   In 5e, even at high levels, the d20 roll is still accounting for +50% of the chance for success.   5e max = +6  compared ot PF max = +23 (not counting attributes or magic items).  In 5e, skill counts for roughly 25% of the outcome (7-26 range).

    Other than hit points and class features, level really makes little-to-no difference to the outcome of actions.   A 1st level novice character has +2 and a 20th level master has +6.   Success or failure is primarily a result of the chance of the dice.  

    I am not putting your game down and I am excited to play.   But, in general, I dislike systems that don't allow for skill to overcome luck.
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    Re: Information

    Post  navyik on Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:59 pm

    There's a feat called skilled that grants 3 proficiencies of your choice.
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    Re: Information

    Post  MAS on Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:44 pm

    CHRIS -

    No worries, I can have an objective discussion about mechanics.

    I see the math, but I like it. It keeps things balanced, leaves some room for chance, and forces the players to stay sharp. Additional modifiers are added by skillful play, rather than by brute force number crunching. Application of spells (buffs and debuffs), class abilities, manipulation of situations to generate advantage or confer disadvantage (BIG PRIORITY!), etc. - THAT is where you make your money, so to speak.

    You want to eliminate the randomness, adventure at the top of your game! Besides - life, and therefore good stories - are like that. Sometimes you do your best, and you still end up with a yard of steel in your belly.

    ALAN -

    Good catch! You want more proficiencies, take the "Skilled" feat! Voila!
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    Re: Information

    Post  Chris on Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:00 pm

    MAS wrote:CHRIS -

    No worries, I can have an objective discussion about mechanics.

    I see the math, but I like it. It keeps things balanced, leaves some room for chance, and forces the players to stay sharp. Additional modifiers are added by skillful play, rather than by brute force number crunching. Application of spells (buffs and debuffs), class abilities, manipulation of situations to generate advantage or confer disadvantage (BIG PRIORITY!), etc. - THAT is where you make your money, so to speak.

    I figured you could, but safer to say so up front.   flower

    cheers You make a good point, I forgot about Adv\Dis.  Getting 2 rolls removes a good bit of the 'chance' factor, almost like taking 10 but with the possibility of a good roll on top of it.

    Combat is a different matter, as +hit always scales against +AC, +dam\#Att scale to HP\DR\Saves.  1st level combat is effectively the same as high level combat - you hit medium challenge mobs on a 10+, hard mobs on a 15+, etc.  You can sway that range a bit with really good crunching, but not much in the end.

    buffs, magic items, class features etc will always give some bonus, in any game, but likewise, debuffs, magic items and enemy class features can neutralize it.  like combat, resisted checks are effectively the same range of dice rolls at any level.

    I probably wasn't specific enough, but I was really looking at and thinking about unopposed skill checks - like jumping over a creek, climbing a wall, repairing an item, recalling a historical fact, making an herbal remedy, etc.
    Those have static target numbers regardless of level and are unopposed by another character directly.

    If the DC to run across a ledge is 15, medium difficulty - that remains true from 1st level to 20th.  It doesn't scale and is always constant.  

    But a 1st level ranger has +2, the 10th has +4 and the 20th only has +6.  Even assuming the ranger raised his STR a little along the way and got +1 at 10th and +2 at 20th.  (DEX raised at other levels)

    Starting with a good Str of 14 at 1st, 16 at 10th and 18 at 20th.

    1st = +4
    10th = +7
    20th = +10

    A 20th level master ranger still has a 25% chance to fail at running across a medium difficulty ledge?  Even the auto-fail 5% from rolling a 1 is probably high, but just accepted in gaming after 30 yrs.  The 10th level ranger has a 40% chance to fail and the 1st level ranger has a 55% chance to fail.  

    That % seems about right for 1st level, in all honesty.  But, imo, it should go down considerably to the point of only failing on a 1 by at least 10th level.

    It just seems like negligible growth for a heroic character, let alone a mundane person, over the course of going from novice to master.
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    Re: Information

    Post  Robyo on Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:11 pm

    LOL that didn't take long!
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    Re: Information

    Post  navyik on Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:22 pm

    Chris broke the game! I quit... lol!
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    Re: Information

    Post  Chris on Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:50 pm

    Robyo wrote:LOL that didn't take long!

    navyik wrote:Chris broke the game!  I quit... lol!

    drunken sorry, welcome to my brain  drunken

    it drives my wife crazy, but serves me well as an investigator Cool
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    Re: Information

    Post  Chris on Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:17 am

    wizard variant added
    fire genassi, sage background
    astrology, no medicine\healing

    I am leaning towards this variant, especially since Bronson has a Druid\hermit
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    Re: Information

    Post  navyik on Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:42 pm

    Can't let the scoundrel be the only smart guy! cheers
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    Re: Information

    Post  MAS on Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:45 pm

    Chris wrote:
    Robyo wrote:LOL that didn't take long!

    navyik wrote:Chris broke the game!  I quit... lol!

    drunken sorry, welcome to my brain  drunken

    it drives my wife crazy, but serves me well as an investigator Cool

    ROFL! Just Chris being Chris, truth be told I count on it!

    Once again, you are dead on with the math, and while I agree that the fail % chance seems a bit high, those unopposed checks can be buffed too - or aim for creative use of tools, roleplaying, etc to gain advantage. Or be ready to heal the dmg when you fall, lol!
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    Post  navyik on Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:59 pm

    I don't think this precludes use on passive checks:
    Expertise:
    At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves’ tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.

    Passive Checks:
    A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn’t involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster.Here’s how to determine a character’s total for a passive check:10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the checkIf the character has advantage on the check, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. The game refers to a passive check total as a score.For example, if a 1st-level character has a Wisdom of 15 and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) score of 14.The rules on hiding in the “Dexterity” section below rely on passive checks, as do the exploration rules in chapter 8.
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    Re: Information

    Post  Robyo on Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:24 pm

    Yeah, you definitely get your expertise bonus on active, opposed, and passive checks. There aren't too many passive checks in 5e, but Perception is a huge one. Does Ali have expertise in Perception? It's a really important skill, I think.

    And so there's no confusion, any character can attempt any skill.
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    Re: Information

    Post  navyik on Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:31 pm

    Robyo wrote:Yeah, you definitely get your expertise bonus on active, opposed, and passive checks. There aren't too many passive checks in 5e, but Perception is a huge one. Does Ali have expertise in Perception? It's a really important skill, I think.

    And so there's no confusion, any character can attempt any skill.

    He does have exp. perception. Matt and I debated this some, but now that I have read this, I think it is just a way to streamline or to disguise DM checks. (A "spirit of the law" argument). Sounds like that is how others play it, I found the following forum topic:

    http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/82695/does-a-rogues-expertise-apply-to-passive-perception

    "Yes, Expertise affects passive Perception checks.

    Passive Checks (PHB 175)

    Here's how to determine a character's total for a passive check:

    10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the check [...]

    For example, if a 1st-level character has a Wisdom of 15 and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) score of 14.

    Simply put, if you have a WIS mod of +3 and a proficiency bonus of +4 (with proficiency in Perception), your passive Perception score will be 10 + 7, or 17. If you have Expertise in Perception, the +4 is doubled, so you're correct in judging that your passive Perception score will be 21."

    That said, Matt if your earlier ruling must stand, then I will respectfully defer.
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    Re: Information

    Post  Robyo on Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:43 am

    Yeah, it basically makes Perception a target number for the DM to roll against (in secret). In 4e, and Radiance as you may recall, the three saves were also used as target numbers by adding 10 to the base value.

    I like it when a player rolls his own saves, but I also like rolling against an enemy's save as a target number. Particularly for the DM, I think it gives more lee-way for him/her to adjust the story according to the randomness of dice rolling.
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    Post  Chris on Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:24 pm

    Robyo wrote:Yeah, it basically makes Perception a target number for the DM to roll against (in secret). In 4e, and Radiance as you may recall, the three saves were also used as target numbers by adding 10 to the base value.

    I like it when a player rolls his own saves, but I also like rolling against an enemy's save as a target number. Particularly for the DM, I think it gives more lee-way for him/her to adjust the story according to the randomness of dice rolling.

    yeah, PF has options for all rolls being resisted, no rolls being resisted, players roll all, players roll none, or any combination in between.   Mostly it depends on just how much dice rolling you want, lol.

    afro back in the day....  I really liked how d6 star wars, shadowrun and even white wolf made all of combat a series of resisted tests:  firearms vs dodge, damage vs body soak, etc.

    Today, that just sounds like a mind-numbing amount of dice rolling lol!
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    Re: Information

    Post  Chris on Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:26 pm

    MAS wrote:
    ALL -

    Christian has mentioned interest in making a character, so I am going to give him some time to do so.

    We will get started no later than Sunday regardless. This gives folks time to edit or rebuild characters if they like - folks who are new to the ruleset might discover something that makes them want to change.


    Are we still on track for the target start?

    Vozz is ready. I gave him a brief background, but let me know if you need more. Or maybe you can suggest something too, since I only know a little about the world.
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    Re: Information

    Post  Robyo on Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:53 pm

    Chris wrote:PF has options for all rolls being resisted, no rolls being resisted, players roll all, players roll none, or any combination in between.   Mostly it depends on just how much dice rolling you want, lol.

    afro back in the day....  I really liked how d6 star wars, shadowrun and even white wolf made all of combat a series of resisted tests:  firearms vs dodge, damage vs body soak, etc.

    Today, that just sounds like a mind-numbing amount of dice rolling lol!

    Right. With a few house rules, it's possible to run a d20 game with players rolling all the dice, leaving the DM free to run the story. I'd like to try that sometime.

    What about diceless D&D? That would be interesting... There are a few diceless rpgs out there, like Amber. Never got to try it though, but I liked the books.
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    Re: Information

    Post  Chris on Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:20 pm

    Robyo wrote:
    Right. With a few house rules, it's possible to run a d20 game with players rolling all the dice, leaving the DM free to run the story. I'd like to try that sometime.

    That would be interesting for sure. I bet people would focus more on their defensive skills, if they seemed more active.


    Robyo wrote:

    What about diceless D&D? That would be interesting... There are a few diceless rpgs out there, like Amber. Never got to try it though, but I liked the books.

    I loved the Amber books in HS!  I even wrote a paper about them for English my senior year.

    We tried it, I think the Breeses had it.  It was.... odd.  Kind of like Vampire, in that you are going to be against your fellow players.

    Everyone had a pool of points at creation and you bid against the other players for ratings on like 4 attributes (str, int, etc) and 4 specials (Shadow shifting, magic, chaos, etc).   When you had a conflict, the person with the higher rating simply won, no dice rolled.

    Fighting anything from Shadow is like a Vampire fighting a human anyways, so no dice needed there either.

    It was like in the books - Gerard was just the strongest, Random the quickest, some had the best magic, etc
    But it was all relative to your generation.
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    Post  Robyo on Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:58 am

    Sounds intriguing! I'd love to try it out sometime, but the books are pretty expensive (Amazon/Ebay). If someone happens upon a PDF, we can give it a go.

    The setup in Amber was pretty cool as I recall. It's been awhile for me since I read it, (only read the first 5 books), but as a game I don't see why shadow worlds wouldn't have legendary heroes/champions/etc of their own that pose a threat to (at least lower level) PCs.

    I wonder Chris, do you recall if  there is any way to suppress or alter one's attributes? That would add a cool dynamic and mirror the books too, since it took awhile for Corwin to regain his memory, and therefore his powers.
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    Re: Information

    Post  Chris on Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:07 pm

    "All hail the great and powerful.... GOOOGLE!"

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/94126259/Amber-Diceless-RPG

    I don't remember much, but Corwin seemed to be a very powerful outlier. Like trying to emulate a Skywalker in SW Rolling Eyes
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    Post  Robyo on Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:18 pm

    Aw sweet! DL'd

    I've been planning a planejumpers campaign for awhile. I may use Amber system straight or perhaps include some rules and the icons in the campaign mythology.
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    Re: Information

    Post  MAS on Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:21 pm

    Please proceed to thread "FOUL PORTENTS".

    I'll start filling in the prelude thread tomorrow. We'll do the prelude while we run the first encounter!

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