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    When Darkness Falls

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    Chris

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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  Chris on Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:20 pm

    apologies for terminology, if any of that is wrong or for not understanding the nature of the Shielding


    as for gaming, I am fine either way too. I am enjoying this game. It's a good story and I like 5e.

    I am also fine with getting my open-genre game up and running, if people want to go that route. I am fine with someone else running something too.
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    MAS
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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  MAS on Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:47 pm


    Pretty damn good!

    You asked for clarification of The Shielding - its magical effects greatly decrease the appearance of "Outsiders". Used in conjunction with smaller wards (on gates, homes, spires on the roads, etc) it creates safe zones where Outsiders are much less likely to manifest. Away from the ward Spires, chances of encountering Outsiders are better, but nowhere near as high as they are outside of The Shielding that protects this region.

    Gnolls are a mortal race of monstrous humanoid raiders. Historically, many clans of them lived in the highlands of the Prominence Mountains north/northeast of this region. After the "Downfall" - the decade-long war in which the gods slew each other, wandering clans have invaded The Shielding, destroying the local castle (now known as "Broken Keep"). The magic of The Shielding does not affect them.




    The Speaker takes in the information Tungo and Vozz have shared, his arms crossed and his expression grave. He is silent for a moment when they finish, then lets out a deep sigh.

    "That is much the same as what the others reported. Many Gnollish, of many clans! Raiders in kilts of every color, all of them chanting the same name in battle - SADUSU! Some carried picks and mining equipment. Other ward spires were found toppled, and so we fear that they are being targeted. It is terrible news that a spire has fallen so close to Milling. As the wards fall, we could become prey to the creatures they permit. And worse, these Gnollish hordes may threaten The Tower and the Arch-Druid himself. Should the magic of The Shielding fail, we are all done for!"




    I'd love to continue the story - however, it is worth noting we seem to have lost half the party's participation. Lets see who chimes in over the next few days. I'd also like to invite Josh to join in if we move forward. He may or may not accept, but I'd like to put that out there. If we don't get a strong response -

    We can move on to a new game or run with fewer than 4 (which isnt a problem) or both!

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    Robyo

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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  Robyo on Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:05 am

    I'm fine for keeping this game going. Having a good time!
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    Chris

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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  Chris on Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:09 am

    MAS wrote:
    I'd love to continue the story - however, it is worth noting we seem to have lost half the party's participation. Lets see who chimes in over the next few days. I'd also like to invite Josh to join in if we move forward. He may or may not accept, but I'd like to put that out there. If we don't get a strong response -

    We can move on to a new game or run with fewer than 4 (which isnt a problem) or both!


    I would really like to get Josh involved again, too.  I miss his presence.  I wish he would give 5e more of a chance.  It removes much of the crunchiness and bloat but still gives good options to the players.  I really like the low level wizard experience.  The improvements to cantrips is huge.

    Dwindling participation is always a problem though, so don't take it personally.  You are running a good story with some novel ideas.  
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    navyik

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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  navyik on Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:33 pm

    Sorry. I just realized I hadn't checked in for a while.  If I don't get the alerts, I get swept away.   pale
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    whit10

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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  whit10 on Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:00 pm

    since I was checking the site....

    Sorry, I see nothing about 5 edition to like. Just my way of seeing things. If the classes were more open with more options and there was no advantage/disadvantage, then that might be a different conversation.
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    Chris

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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  Chris on Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:22 pm

    whit10 wrote:  If the classes were more open with more options and there was no advantage/disadvantage, then that might be a different conversation.

    says the guy that just made a straight fighter\rogue without using any of the archetypes or sub-classes Rolling Eyes

    most of those "options" are under-powered and rarely used

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    whit10

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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  whit10 on Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:59 pm

    The character was best created with those two classes. I went for concept instead of crunch. Thought that's what you wanted.

    And there is no question about which system has more options. Sorry
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    Chris

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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  Chris on Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:19 pm

    number of options was never the question, lol. the point is barely anyone ever uses those options because most of them suck worse than the core classes

    Don't try to deflect your choices back to me. I told everyone to "make whatever you wanted". Fighter\Rogue is far more of a crunch than say making a scientist as a re-skinned Alchemist or as an Empiricist (Investigator archetype). But we both know those classes are as useful and fun as congressional sub committees.

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    Chris

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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  Chris on Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:34 pm

    and of course, I just like giving Josh a hard time, which I don't get to do as much when he isn't on the forum jocolor
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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  whit10 on Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:45 pm

    now that we can agree on.  I think many of the archetypes are pretty cool, actually.

    ...and making fun of me or insulting me isn't really a good way to get me to play. Just sayin'
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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  navyik on Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:13 pm

    Crunchy systems sometimes inhibit concept due to the necessity of crunching the concept enough to compete with other available system crunches.  Minimalist systems reduce the need to make an uncrunchable more crunchy in order to compete.  Class systems are the most difficult thing to crunch around or between to justify an off concept.
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    Chris

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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  Chris on Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:43 pm

    Agreed!

    Some current MMOs use an entirely class-less system. you can put skills anywhere you want and there are different "ability trees" for lack of a better term. melee combat might be one tree and sorcery another, for example. So you can make a pure mage and dump most\all your points into the sorcery line or you can freely mix\max between any or all ability trees to make a truly custom character that plays as you want it to. It's all relative and point-buy, so if you spread your points out, you don't get the higher tier abilities of any one tree.

    Archeage MMO did something similar with ~18 different class-trees but it forced everyone to buy 3 trees. There were some crazy combos like witch\paladin\rogue (play style almost like a Batman) etc. Ranger\wizard\X made magical Hawkeye with different magical effects on the arrows and self buffs.

    5e standardizing BAB, save and prof +X is a step in that direction but keeping a class system.
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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  navyik on Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:45 pm

    I crunched Tarro Bloodwren to prove that point a little.  No concept character could compete in combat.  So I can ma the same character over and over, or I can die over and over as an interesting personality.  The race generator does counter the class ball and chain a little.  5e limits how well you can out-crunch other more concept oriented into the dirt.  classless Level and a long list of skills, feats and short-term trees that allow some skirting of constraining pre-requisite rules would be interesting.
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    MAS
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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  MAS on Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:29 pm

    I think we can count on three to move forward, haven't seen a post from Bronson in weeks. I'll get the next chapter going over the weekend.


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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  MAS on Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:43 pm

    Chris wrote:number of options was never the question, lol.  the point is barely anyone ever uses those options because most of them suck worse than the core classes

    Don't try to deflect your choices back to me.  I told everyone to "make whatever you wanted".  Fighter\Rogue is far more of a crunch than say making a scientist as a re-skinned Alchemist or as an Empiricist (Investigator archetype).  But we both know those classes are as useful and fun as congressional sub committees.  


    Alchemist could be a TON of fun! I've been tempted to play one for quite a while. Its one of those classes you've got to generate creative applications for your abilities in order to be of the best possible impact. And it's got stellar roleplay potential, too. Dr Jeckyl and Mr Hyde with Bombs and Poisons!

    Classes like that are best suited for a more RP heavy game (plotting, influence, etc) which is too hard to do with many players on a forum. For forum play using classes like that, you'd need to be rolling a solo or fast posting/highly responsive duo+GM.
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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  Robyo on Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:15 am

    I agree that Josh should play in Matt's story. It's been pretty cool so far.


    Don't know about Bronson. Lost interest I guess. PBP isn't for everyone, it's rather slow going.
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    Chris

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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  Chris on Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:46 pm

    navyik wrote:I crunched Tarro Bloodwren to prove that point a little.  No concept character could compete in combat.  

    classless Level and a long list of skills, feats and short-term trees that allow some skirting of constraining pre-requisite rules would be interesting.

    Tarro was a very good crunch!  And yet, he wasn't over-powered compared to appropriate CR monsters for that level.  Which is part of the larger problem with PF - trap DCs, monster CRs, etc are geared towards a strong crunch and monty-hauled loot.  You basically have to crunch to keep up with the CRs at higher levels.


    Whitewolf RPGs had a TON of flaws and the basic dice rolling mechanic was terrible.  However, it was basically a class-less, level-less system.  Class could be considered Clan or Tribe, but only loosely.

    Old Shadowrun was also class-less and level-less, but also had terrible mechanics.

    Old d6 Star Wars had Templates, but it was really class-less and level-less too

    If I were to design a game from the ground up, I would use character creation\advancement ideas from all of those games:

    point buy system that allows you to focus on attributes or skills or special abilities

    class-less
    level-less

    advancement is by point allocation, again to any area(s)

    a dice-rolling system that was neither crippling (WW\SR), excessive (SR\SW) nor focused on the +Xs (d20).


    You could almost take 5e, strip away the classes and use an open pool of special abilities (class features).  

    X # of attribute pts
    Y # skills (choose 2,3,4 etc)
    Z # special abilities (rage, 1 lvl of spellcasting, songs, etc)

    +A Flex points to round out any area

    if you look at spellcasters in 5e, they have blank levels where they don't get a class feature.  essentially they would be buying 'spell casting' again at those levels to gain access to higher level spells (if they wanted to be a pure caster).  But you could also choose to stop at a lower level of casting and choose a warrior ability (extra attack) or a paladin ability.

    proficiency bonus being static for everything - BAB, saves, skills - already takes 5e a step towards class-less and would make an easy transition.

    5e races have some really cool unique racial abilities.  I am sure there are more racial options that I haven't seen either.
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    MAS
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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  MAS on Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:05 pm

    Chris wrote:
    navyik wrote:I crunched Tarro Bloodwren to prove that point a little.  No concept character could compete in combat.  

    classless Level and a long list of skills, feats and short-term trees that allow some skirting of constraining pre-requisite rules would be interesting.

    Tarro was a very good crunch!  And yet, he wasn't over-powered compared to appropriate CR monsters for that level.  Which is part of the larger problem with PF - trap DCs, monster CRs, etc are geared towards a strong crunch and monty-hauled loot.  You basically have to crunch to keep up with the CRs at higher levels.


    Whitewolf RPGs had a TON of flaws and the basic dice rolling mechanic was terrible.  However, it was basically a class-less, level-less system.  Class could be considered Clan or Tribe, but only loosely.

    Old Shadowrun was also class-less and level-less, but also had terrible mechanics.

    Old d6 Star Wars had Templates, but it was really class-less and level-less too

    If I were to design a game from the ground up, I would use character creation\advancement ideas from all of those games:

    point buy system that allows you to focus on attributes or skills or special abilities

    class-less
    level-less

    advancement is by point allocation, again to any area(s)

    a dice-rolling system that was neither crippling (WW\SR), excessive (SR\SW) nor focused on the +Xs (d20).


    You could almost take 5e, strip away the classes and use an open pool of special abilities (class features).  

    X # of attribute pts
    Y # skills (choose 2,3,4 etc)
    Z # special abilities (rage, 1 lvl of spellcasting, songs, etc)

    +A Flex points to round out any area

    if you look at spellcasters in 5e, they have blank levels where they don't get a class feature.  essentially they would be buying 'spell casting' again at those levels to gain access to higher level spells (if they wanted to be a pure caster).  But you could also choose to stop at a lower level of casting and choose a warrior ability (extra attack) or a paladin ability.

    proficiency bonus being static for everything - BAB, saves, skills - already takes 5e a step towards class-less and would make an easy transition.

    5e races have some really cool unique racial abilities.  I am sure there are more racial options that I haven't seen either.

    HERO system is super close to what you describe here and what we've discussed as a potential "ideal". Pure point buy.

    The "mixed bag" approach of cherry-picking levels from any class seems like an interesting experiment. If you had 9 levels of fighter, and then took your tenth level in Wizard, you get the full compliment of 10th level spells, correct?

    Volos guide to Monsters just came out with a whole slew of playable "monster" races!

    There has been some really solid 3rd party products put out for 5e so far. The Adventures in Middle-earth Player's Guide has some stellar content low magic campaigns. If it would have been out prior to us starting this campaign, It would have been a great add to "Shadow and Light".

    There are also several good bestiaries, campaign settings, modules, you name it. Plus WOTC releases new playtest goodies almost weekly in the form of unearthed arcana.

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    MrBrownstone75

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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  MrBrownstone75 on Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:01 am

    Sorry I haven't replied in a while. Work has been super busy. The next couple months are going to stay busy too.

    I had fun doing this, but it might be best to just go on without me... death by adulting :p
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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  Robyo on Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:16 am

    Sorry to hear that Bronson. Hope you make it back sometime! Arrow
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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  Robyo on Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:29 am

    I don't mind class-based systems. They are nice for distilling a system's mechanics down to a handful of player's options based on specific archetypes. I think for the lightest class-based d20 version I've encountered is Call of Cthulhu d20. There are only 2 classes: Offensive (high bab, low defense, 2 poor saves) and Defensive (low bab, high defense, 2 high saves). Professions are a bunch of skill sets you bolt on to either class. Works pretty well actually and can cover most time periods including modern I think a mashup of Coc d20 and D20 Modern/Future would be pretty cool.

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/24064278/D20-Call-of-Cthulhu


    There's also Savage Worlds, which is a different system than d20, but has all the usual D&D dice. Incorporates new mechanics like exploding dice. It is a generic system for many time periods andgenres. There are versions for Deadlands and Rifts.

    https://www.peginc.com/freebies/SWcore/TD06.pdf


    Agree with Matt that HERO is a nice classless, point-buy, and very crunchy system. Does Supers very well. Lots of d6's. My experience is with the 4th edition. I think they are up to 6th or 7 now...


    Chris, have you looked into Mutants and Masterminds?


    Last edited by Robyo on Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  Robyo on Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:33 am

    MAS wrote:

    There has been some really solid 3rd party products put out for 5e so far. The Adventures in Middle-earth Player's Guide has some stellar content low magic campaigns. If it would have been out prior to us starting this campaign, It would have been a great add to "Shadow and Light".

    There are also several good bestiaries, campaign settings, modules, you name it. Plus WOTC releases new playtest goodies almost weekly in the form of unearthed arcana.

    We could try incorporating some of the splat stuff as our characters advance.
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    MAS
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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  MAS on Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:22 pm

    MrBrownstone75 wrote:Sorry I haven't replied in a while. Work has been super busy. The next couple months are going to stay busy too.

    I had fun doing this, but it might be best to just go on without me... death by adulting :p

    No worries Bronson - I think most of us have pulled out of a forum game due to tight schedules at some point over the years. It's been good having you involved - if you get the time to join in again just let us know, we'll find a way bring you right back into the story!

    Travel safe and be well - I'll hopefully catch you at the next Sunday game session at Rob's.
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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  Chris on Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:10 pm

    @ Matt - not quite in your example. 9 levels of "fighter" + 1 level of "wizard" gives the character access to first level spells only, just like a normal multi-class option. Buying Spellcasting 2 (access to 2nd level spells), requires spell casting 1 which he wouldn't have bought if he bought 9 levels of "fighter" features.

    essentailly look at and think about how classes gain special abilities\features - most get 1-2 features per level increase, with spellcasting ability not actually being purchased like Rage or Lay on Hands or Extra Attacks. So a pure mage would need to "buy" spellcasting ability at each level or every other level.

    @ Bronson - no worries and see you when you have time!

    @ Rob - Classes have obviously worked well for 40 yrs, no doubt. But I feel like class-based systems follow a pattern. Look at 1e AD&D... 3e.... WW\SW\SR.... PF... now 5e.... they always start with a core group of classes and then after 5 yrs there are 5-10 books, with a million variants, archetypes, sub-classes, etc. I know they all need to make $$ by selling more books, but the bloat gets ridiculous.

    I just looked briefly at Savage Worlds - that looks really cool, thanks for sharing that! I will give it a full read through, but I always liked the old systems (even with flaws) like SR, SW, WW that had low target #s and stacking\raising success.
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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  whit10 on Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:59 pm

    thanks for the invites and all.... I'm just not all that into gaming anymore. Real world stuff has starting taking precedent at all times.
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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  navyik on Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:06 pm

    whit10 wrote:thanks for the invites and all.... I'm just not all that into gaming anymore.  Real world stuff has starting taking precedent at all times.

    He must have a girlfriend...
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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  Chris on Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:09 pm

    navyik wrote:
    whit10 wrote:thanks for the invites and all.... I'm just not all that into gaming anymore.  Real world stuff has starting taking precedent at all times.

    He must have a girlfriend...

    or 2 afro

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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  navyik on Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:24 pm

    Chris wrote:
    navyik wrote:
    whit10 wrote:thanks for the invites and all.... I'm just not all that into gaming anymore.  Real world stuff has starting taking precedent at all times.

    He must have a girlfriend...

    or 2  afro

    Mac Daddy  elephant albino affraid Twisted Evil
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    whit10

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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  whit10 on Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:02 pm

    Nope. Not yet

    ... just lack of interest
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    MAS
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    Re: When Darkness Falls

    Post  MAS on Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:48 pm

    The story continues in the new thread

    The warm glow of a moment's respite

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    Re: When Darkness Falls

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