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    Chris

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    General info

    Post  Chris on Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:50 pm

    just somewhere to chat about it, besides the Star Wars game thread

    questions\thoughts....

    are you guys thinking that this would be like a fantasy version of risk\supremecy\A&A where we the players are fighting each other?

    or more like Vampire\Game of Thrones where we have other things going on, but are not necessarily allies either?

    or more like a party-orientated game, except our character is our King\Lord\Country instead of a single dude?


    I think this is a cool idea, but I do worry about the time and involvement level, especially for whoever decides to be the Storyteller.
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    Robyo

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    Re: General info

    Post  Robyo on Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:01 pm

    Lots of good ideas there. .. we'd want a good world map with different frontiers, areas to conquer, and hexes to develop strongholds... In tone, I'd find something similar to Game of Thrones or Amber with lots of intrigue very appealing. Maybe players control families or clans, rather than a single character? Radiance has rules for running factions like characters. A faction could be a church, guild, coven, outpost, tribe, whatever you wish.
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    MAS
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    Re: General info

    Post  MAS on Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:27 pm

    Here is what Ive been chewing on -

    Think a fantasy based Supremacy / A&A, with heavy RPG elements. 

    Players can be allied or not, player choice and diplomacy!

    As Rob said, a faction could start as anything -"church, guild, coven, outpost, tribe, whatever you wish."

    I would think that each player would/could choose a "standard" or semi-standard race, so all troops/assets would be templated as such.

    Chris- I envison a mix of both = "are you guys thinking that this would be like a fantasy version of risk\supremecy\A&A where we the players are fighting each other?or more like Vampire\Game of Thrones where we have other things going on, but are not necessarily allies either?"

    here are a few different appraoches -

    Everybody starts out in their own area, expands and explores through unkown map space until they meet. in the meantime, there are plenty of NPC threats/events to deal with. GM faicliatets and plays NPC factions and events. More of an open sandbox. 

    A full blown kingdom is already established, with the players being mid-high level nobles/houses, and a civil war breaks out (Dune/Game of Thrones!)

    We could even do a city based theme, where the players control factions......maybe a bunch of crimelords/merchants/etc.

    On that note - competing merchant houses could be a cool idea. it might keep full blown, open warfare off the table but everything else would be a go - if you can get away with it! 

    having only glanced through the PF kingdom rules, I think they have a good start. Some other resources are TSRs "Birthright" (which includes some awesome "realm magic".....

    We can take a solid look at some rule sets and see if it would be any more overwhelming than standard GMing - I think with the right setup and a little forthought, it would be about the same. Maybe we even establish a loose "timer" - players have a week to resolve a round or something.
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    Chris

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    Re: General info

    Post  Chris on Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:40 pm

    just thinking out loud.... what about expanding on the merchant\crimelord idea......

    I tried a 2 nighter version of this in Rockford probably 15 years ago with JC, Mike W, Matt, Josh, but I also ran a mini-campaign for quite a while here in Steamboat using the same idea.

    Here we played Star Wars, but setting doesn't matter.

    Everyone was a 12th level PC character. You didn't have to take the Crimelord Prestige class, but that was the general idea of the campaign (some did, some didn't).

    This is your "main" figurehead, hopefully not going to get into too much direct combat. Focus was on social skills.

    Each Boss got 20 levels of ultra-loyal henchmen to work with. I think I made some restrictions, like no more than 7-8 levels in any 1 henchman. So they had to spread it out and no henchman would really be a direct threat to a boss.

    So people took bodyguards, spies, assassins, smugglers, major-domo's, computer specialists.

    There was a main story-line that the Boss characters participated in directly, sort of like Vampire.

    But then they could send their agents off on missions to do things - acquire this, spy on the other player, steal something, sell something, etc. Those weren't directly role-played out (would take too long) but there was more than just "ok, he is gone for a week, make a roll". Sometimes the minions end up in combat after all.

    In a fantasy setting, they could out and secure resources for building siege, build forts, be a diplomat and try to gain support of minor faction allies.... as well as the above.

    I think Matt has a good idea about limiting turn length. And Rob's suggestion about a big and accurate map is a MUST.

    What we did is just an example and bits of it could be incorporated into other ideas.

    And the minions certainly did fail and die. But given the nature of powerful people, at the end of a "turn" or whatever, they have the chance to recruit new minions. A death to a minion mostly meant the loss of the ability to "do" something for a while, until the turn was over.
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    navyik

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    Re: General info

    Post  navyik on Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:58 pm

    My buddy in the joint ran a forgotten realms campaign where we were nobles and a parallel campaign for those characters cohorts.
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    navyik

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    Re: General info

    Post  navyik on Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:59 pm

    Oooh... remember masters of monsters for sega?
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    MAS
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    Re: General info

    Post  MAS on Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:03 am

    I second Rob's input about the map!

    In a larger (continent or global) game =
    We could, perhaps, play through a "terrain draft", where each player in turn draws or randomly generates hexs or regional sets of hexs. (a bit time intensive)

    We could start everyone with a few hexs, and leave most of the map blacked out. When a hex becomes revealled (through exploration, scrying, etc) the GM or player rolls and consults a few pre-made table to determine the hexs' characteristics. 

    We could use a pre-made game map - like this one from "Birthright" :
    http://zombiefilehost.com/pics/ec67244e806138dc9938f212eafa1b0c.jpg

    Alan = I'd love to hear more about that "noble" campaign. And I could see this playing out with some elements very similar to MoMonsters.

    Chris' "leadership" campaign back in the day was pretty cool. I'd love to work several aspects of it into what we end up doing, particlaurlly the "chohorts/loyal followers" aspect. 

    I'd reccomend that we utilize a core set of existing rules, and determine our additional house rules, and allow the GM some reasonable latitude to support "outside the box" ideas - as long as it can perfromed within the context of existing, agreed upon game mechanics. 

    My first thought is that all players full turns would resolve concurrently, with any player to player opposing actions (like when two factions may be fighting each other) being broken down by initiative. Any changes to income, loss/gain of asset, etc come into play in the NEXT round. If you havnt looked over the PF Kingdoms rules yet, they have a things broken down like this -

    Kingdom Turn Sequence
    A kingdom's growth occurs during four phases, which together make up 1 kingdom turn (1 month of game time). The four phases are as follows:
    Phase 1—Upkeep: Check your kingdom's stability, pay costs, and deal with Unrest. If your kingdom controls 0 hexes, skip the Upkeep phase and proceed to the Edict phase.
    Phase 2—Edict: Declare official proclamations about taxes, diplomacy, and other kingdom-wide decisions.
    Phase 3—Income: Add to your Treasury by collecting taxes and converting gp into BP, or withdraw BP from your kingdom for your personal use.
    Phase 4—Event: Check whether any unusual events occur that require attention. Some are beneficial, such as an economic boom, good weather, or the discovery of remarkable treasure. Others are detrimental, such as foul weather, a plague, or a rampaging monster.
    These phases are always undertaken in the above order. Many steps allow you to perform an action once per kingdom turn; this means once for the entire kingdom, not once per leader.

    The next few days/full week is/are going to be very busy for me - but Ill keep chiming in as best as I can!
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    Chris

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    Re: General info

    Post  Chris on Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:21 am

    The Birthright map looks fine and might be easier than full map generation.

    Unless we went with a campaign idea something like.... a world wracked by Chaos storms that literally change the landscape and it's inhabitants as they move. So the map "used" to be known, but now kingdoms are isolated and don't know if the road west still exists or if it is now a desert or a swamp where it used to be crop fields. (this could be REALLY time intensive, but would allow random generation of maps)


    MAS wrote:
    Kingdom Turn Sequence
    A kingdom's growth occurs during four phases, which together make up 1 kingdom turn (1 month of game time). The four phases are as follows:
    Phase 1—Upkeep: Check your kingdom's stability, pay costs, and deal with Unrest. If your kingdom controls 0 hexes, skip the Upkeep phase and proceed to the Edict phase.
    Phase 2—Edict: Declare official proclamations about taxes, diplomacy, and other kingdom-wide decisions.
    Phase 3—Income: Add to your Treasury by collecting taxes and converting gp into BP, or withdraw BP from your kingdom for your personal use.
    Phase 4—Event: Check whether any unusual events occur that require attention. Some are beneficial, such as an economic boom, good weather, or the discovery of remarkable treasure. Others are detrimental, such as foul weather, a plague, or a rampaging monster.
    These phases are always undertaken in the above order. Many steps allow you to perform an action once per kingdom turn; this means once for the entire kingdom, not once per leader.



    The Kingdom phases look cool, but I don't understand why phase 4 is last. To me, phase 4 should occur in between phase 1 and 2.

    Phase 1 - check for stability, unrest, etc
    Phase 2 - check for random events
    phase 3 - Declare your actions, now that you know what the random events for the round and your stability actually look like
    phase 4 - resolve Edicts, collect income, adjust other numbers from above.

    I guess in the Kingdom example, those random events are really the events for NEXT round? I guess if you collect your income and then have random events that impact next round, that is fine too, just seemed a bit odd when I first read it.
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    Chris

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    Re: General info

    Post  Chris on Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:26 am

    navyik wrote:Oooh... remember masters of monsters for sega?

    with the hexes and towers and monsters that morphed into stronger monsters!

    GREAT game!

    A component of that game that we should consider adding is the large scale MAGIC the Lords had - like the whirlwind that would scatter enemy monsters 1-6 hexes in random directions.  Or the teleport from tower to tower of your monster (army).


    It would be fun to see a way to use classes for Lords\Bosses to have large scale effects, for instance -

    a druid\priest\wizard - large scale spells, like scatter, confuse, immobilze on a whole hex

    a druid or ranger might be able to send 1 rampaging monster per turn into a territory

    a necromancer (either priest or wizard) could unleash undead, like above

    a good priest\paladin could grant blessings or maybe even "call for champions" to be a defensive version of the monster rampage

    a rogue could steal resources or assassinate (think Rome\Med Total War)

    a warrior - maybe rallies more troops each round or can automatically train troops with a +2 upgrade or something
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    navyik

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    Re: General info

    Post  navyik on Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:51 am

    Probably need to think about creating all new classes under O.G.L. in case this becomes marketable. Spells definitely need to be large scale even at the lowest level with just a few class specific abilities for pc 's direct combat.

    I think it would be difficult to ballance non spellcasting pc's unless there is a provision for multiclassing. Rather i would recommend a power build system that assumes magical ability lije magic the gathering. Towers controled also determined manna points in momonsters.
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    Chris

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    Re: General info

    Post  Chris on Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:14 pm

    navyik wrote:
    I think it would be difficult to ballance non spellcasting pc's unless there is a provision for multiclassing.  

    I agree it could be tricky. I think it will depend on all the things that get integrated into the game to balance the classes.

    For instance, depending on how Unrest in territories works, maybe a warrior\bard\paladin type would have natural "leadership" bonuses that automatically reduce unrest. Or maybe priests too

    Or depending on how prevalent actual field battles between armies are.... a Warrior's army might be far superior when actually fighting a battle than any other class, regardless of their other abilities. Thinking about Total War\A&A\Risk, etc if the Warrior class had an army field bonus, whereby all their soldiers were +10-20% better on the field, that would easily make them very playable, even without magical abilities.

    Or maybe Warriors are inherently better Builders - they can build any non-magical structure, like a Keep, walls, siege engines faster than any other class. Yeah the wizard gets some great spells, but if it takes him 10 turns to build a Keep and the Warrior gets his done in 7 and starts earning income, building troops, gathering supplies, etc.... he will be able to "conquer" territory much faster than any other class.

    Maybe Rangers can "see" farther on the map? Or their armies ignore slow terrain, like swamps and mountains and effectively move across the map faster than anyone else.

    I think a Rogue's abilities could include assassination of enemy generals\diplomats\scouts\agents. Stealing resources. And maybe their armies can move with Stealth across the map?


    I think we can come up with rules that keep it fair.

    This is all stuff we can create.... but it would sure be nice to see a game system that already has 90% of this done Cool 
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    Robyo

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    Re: General info

    Post  Robyo on Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:39 pm

    Maybe the king or guildmaster or whatever has a class preference, but I would think, since the game involves mass combat with factions/armies, every player would have an opportunity to "buy" magic as well as martial forces. Everyone's army could then have mages as well as fighters. So it's balanced that way, at least.
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    Chris

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    Re: General info

    Post  Chris on Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:13 pm

    sure, Rob. or if there is something like Cohorts, a Warrior could have a mage cohort or vice-versa
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    Chris

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    Re: General info

    Post  Chris on Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:33 pm

    what about something like this?

    http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/37638/battleground-kingdoms

    it is a campaign setting expansion to the Battleground table top fantasy war game. Think Warhammer, but WITHOUT the miniatures, it uses cards to represent the troops, but otherwise sounds just like Warhammer.

    we could, of course, make our own adjustments, but at least we wouldn't be reinventing the whole wheel and would have a core set of rules that have been playtested and should be fairly balanced.

    I think we could use the forum, as we have been, import the maps and make tokens of scanned images of the cards and have lots of player vs player battles.

    they have tons of races and army units already done, combat rules that focus on PvP

    looks like some of it is already download-able

    http://www.yourmovegames.com/pages/downloads.html

    I would think we could buy 1 actual book and then scan\copy as needed. maybe they even have a .pdf version that we could share.

    jsut a thought for getting something up and going more easily and quickly
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    MAS
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    Re: General info

    Post  MAS on Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:56 pm

    Great discussion so far! 

    - The "large scale magic" Chris mentioned is present in Birthright as "realm magic". http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=Realm_spell_descriptions

    - On that note, "Birthright" offers a pretty solid rule-set that we may consider as our base. In BR, regardless of character class, "magical" realm powers are granted through having a "bloodline" that bestows it, so any class can be competitive.
     
    - I think Rob's comments about any ruler being able to purchase "special" troops, magic, etc is spot on.

    - I could see the advantage of having a ruler or cohort who is "fighter" classed as translating into extra moves, attacks, etc. Their conventional armies might far exceed the capabilties of other conventional forces. 

    - Alan's comment about ensuring OGL compliance is an excellent one. If we used conventional classes, perhaps we could simply offer it as "alternate class features"?

    - I think having the random events happen at the end of the turn makes sense, if you assume that the ruler becomes aware of the impact/event at that point. Its consequences or blessings must be accounted for in the next round.

    - This may take a while to put together, but could be a really cool project to collaborate on, let alone play. When I get some time - Im going to "deep" read the PF rules, Birthright, and a few other sources.
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    Robyo

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    Re: General info

    Post  Robyo on Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:47 pm

    I thought Birthright was from AD&D 2e? Is this some sort of d20-ized wiki? I didn't get too far into the website...

    Chris' idea seems cool as well. I guess it depends on how much folks want it to be role-playing, and how much tactical mass-combat stuff. I can go entirely either way, but 50% of each would be cool too.
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    Chris

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    Re: General info

    Post  Chris on Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:09 pm

    Robyo wrote:
    Chris' idea seems cool as well. I guess it depends on how much folks want it to be role-playing, and how much tactical mass-combat stuff. I can go entirely either way, but 50% of each would be cool too.

    Yeah, great brainstorming so far!

    I agree with Rob, a mix would be great. I also think this might be a fun outlet for certain.... "calling out" that has happened lately. I think some PvP would be good fun, especially on a large-scale fantasy setting.

    I will look more into Birthright, but the Battlegrounds has point-based army building and that also supports just a one-time fight for bragging rights, like a Warhammer battle.
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    Chris

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    Re: General info

    Post  Chris on Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:20 pm

    or even something a bit more simple, but with the ability to create ANY army unit you want

    http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5369/hordes-of-the-things

    I am just throwing out things I see that may have some usable parts, the battle map parts, along with something like Birthright or Kingdoms or whatever, which has the campaign\builder rules.
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    Chris

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    Re: General info

    Post  Chris on Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:22 pm

    MAS wrote:

    - The "large scale magic" Chris mentioned is present in Birthright as "realm magic". http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=Realm_spell_descriptions


    ooh! cool Realm Magic spells - that is 100% what I was thinking
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    MAS
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    Re: General info

    Post  MAS on Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:40 pm

    Rob - Birthright was originally 2E, but I have a D20 version - I'll email it out to everyone (its only 5mb so no pando should be needed). 

    Chris - Ill take a look at the systems youve reccomended as candidates, they sound interesting!

    While a straight up PvP battle game would be cool, and I would totally be willing to play one, my personal tastes and prefernces fall more towards a larger strategy/rpg experince with open battle as a component. 

    I like the idea of point based builds, and even of using some sort of card based system. interesting...
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    Chris

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    Re: General info

    Post  Chris on Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:24 pm

    Alan - remember in high school ( I know, asking a lot!).... we came up with rules for a D&D chess game?

    I was thinking about the Strongholds idea and my mind went back to us sitting in my parents basement, with my D&D minis and chess board, playing a chess-like game, but having to make combat rolls instead of just 'taking' pieces.

    or back to college - remember that battle mat game.... "wolf riders x2" "mighty ogre" or the cannon!
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    whit10

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    Re: General info

    Post  whit10 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:28 pm

    That was Battle Masters.... I gave my copy of it to Alan right before I left

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