Rules and concept discussion

yes, you can take them, and it would work that way - BUT -

1) Crafting services will be available through NPCs so you might be better off using those slots on something with useful in a fight.

2) There may not be enough time in between encounters to craft.

Call to mind the Allied pilots during the Battle of Britain, or the First episode of BattleStar Galactica SE1 - "33".

I'm gonna need a potion of cure critical wounds. Or a couple even. Where the hell are they listed?

There are no potions of Cure Critical Wounds.. only 1st-3rd level spells can be turned into potions.

Got it. Well I need some options for fixing myself up. Suggestions?

Arcturus wrote:Got it. Well I need some options for fixing myself up. Suggestions?

Cure Serious is still 3d8+5 and good for the price of 750g

just make sure to check the level of the spell for all the different caster classes, not all potions are the same price

for instance:

Lesser Restoration, which I highly recommend, is a lvl 1 Paladin spell for 50g compared to a lvl 2 Cleric\Bard at 300g\400g


Josh and Alan have some healing abilities and Rob and I can use Wands (via Use Magic Device skill)

Paladins are effective healers if they dont waste too many spells on buffs. We have 2 sorcerrors for that... I will get a better wand to help out.
Grizzle picks locks... With his forehead!  

navyik wrote:Paladins are effective healers if they dont waste too many spells on buffs.  We have 2 sorcerrors for that... I will get a better wand to help out.
Grizzle picks locks... With his forehead!  

Grizzle can find traps too! The Bear goes first   

don't worry, the sorcerers can heal you with wands

Paladin's healing abilities don't really come from their spells at all. Lay on Hands and Mercies are what makes them good at healing. Spells are extra little bits of help and flavor.

GM - could a Monkey familiar, with a 13 Intelligence at our level and opposable thumbs perform simple tasks for a mage like....

put items back into a Haversack\backpack if they were dropped?
(1 action to pick up, 1 to put away)

pour a potion down my throat if KO'd?
he could wear a satchel with a couple potions in it (1 action to draw potion, 1 to pinch my nose and pour)


a monkey's familiar bonus is terrible (+3 acrobatics) compared to the +2 to save ones and would be much less effective at delivering touch spells than a flying familiar. I just thought maybe this was a reasonable use of a monkey as a familiar.

thoughts?

Chirs2 wrote:GM - could a Monkey familiar, with a 13 Intelligence at our level and opposable thumbs perform simple tasks for a mage like....  

put items back into a Haversack\backpack if they were dropped?  
(1 action to pick up, 1 to put away)

pour a potion down my throat if KO'd?  
he could wear a satchel with a couple potions in it (1 action to draw potion, 1 to pinch my nose and pour)


a monkey's familiar bonus is terrible (+3 acrobatics) compared to the +2 to save ones and would be much less effective at delivering touch spells than a flying familiar.  I just thought maybe this was a reasonable use of a monkey as a familiar.

thoughts?

Brilliant!

I think this is a great idea, considering what we know about primate intelligence and the precedent we've set with service animals in the real world..  

Don't forget a monkey's usefulness in trap-finding   

I'd say those were reasonable things for a Monkey familiar to do... not the GM of course, but I like it.  lol

One sort of tactics thing for everyone to know... Tyrael has a spell called King's Castle (which I'm pretty fond of). Instant changing of spots between he and any other ally within 65'. Good way to switch with someone who's getting pounded on... keep in mind he likes to fly a lot though.

Arcturus wrote:
Brilliant!

I think this is a great idea, considering what we know about primate intelligence and the precedent we've set with service animals in the real world..

thanks! his intelligence is even greater as a familiar too

Robyo wrote:Don't forget a monkey's usefulness in trap-finding   

now that's just mean.... besides we have a Huge Bear as a trapfinder   

yeah, Bears make good trap-springers... er, finders.

Too bad our overall party alignment is good- we could pull a page from Ghengis Kahn's Mongol Hordes playbook and just force whatever local populations we may encounter to march before us as trap springers and living shields. Just sayin.

Hey GM, The Inner Sea World Guide isn't an approved text, is it? It contains a feat called Godless Healing which looks pretty useful.

Arcturus wrote:Too bad our overall party alignment is good- we could pull a page from Ghengis Kahn's Mongol Hordes playbook and just force whatever local populations we may encounter to march before us as trap springers and living shields. Just sayin.

heh, an Evil campaign would be awesome.

Arcturus wrote:Hey GM, The Inner Sea World Guide isn't an approved text, is it? It contains a feat called Godless Healing which looks pretty useful.

I was looking at some stuff in the "something of the North" book too. I don't remember the name, People of or whatever

I copied this from the UE book, it helped me organize and manage my items, since you can only have 1 type of item per body slot.

For instance, I didn't realize there was both a headband and a head slot

Belt:
Body:
Chest:
Eyes:
Feet:
Hands:
Head:
Headband:
Neck:
Shoulders:
Wrists:
Slotless:
 
Just copy\paste into your character sheet and slot your specific item.

here is the full list, with descriptions of what you can put into each slot



Belt: This slot consists of belts and other items that can be worn around the waist.

Body: This slot consists of body wraps, cassocks, corsets, dusters, harnesses, robes, vestments and any other article of clothing that can be worn on the body.

Chest: This slot consists of jackets, mantels, shirts, vests and other items that can be worn around the torso or chest.

Eyes: This slot consists of goggles, lenses, monocles, spectacles, and other items that can be worn over the eyes.

Feet: This slot consists of boots, horseshoes, sandals, shoes, slippers, and other items that can be worn on the feet.

Hands: This slot consists of gauntlets, gloves, and other items that can worn on the hands.

Head: This slot consists of circlets, crowns, hats, helms, hoods, masks, and other items that can be worn on the head.

Headband: This slot consists of bands, headbands, laurels, phylacteries, and other non-head slot items that can be worn around the forehead.

Neck: This slot consists of amulets, brooches, medallions, necklaces, periapts, scarabs, and other items that can be worn around the neck or fastened to a cloak.

Shoulders: This slot consists of capes, cloaks, cords, mantels, pauldrons, shawls, stoles, wings, and other items that can be worn on the shoulders.

Wrists: This slot consists of armbands, bracelets, bracers, gauntlets, manacles, shackles, vambraces, and other items that can worn over the wrists.

Slotless

Rasso is done pending GM approval and answer to Monkey familiar question and Mythic Haste discussion

Chirs2 wrote:GM - could a Monkey familiar, with a 13 Intelligence at our level and opposable thumbs perform simple tasks for a mage like....  

put items back into a Haversack\backpack if they were dropped?  
(1 action to pick up, 1 to put away)

pour a potion down my throat if KO'd?  
he could wear a satchel with a couple potions in it (1 action to draw potion, 1 to pinch my nose and pour)


a monkey's familiar bonus is terrible (+3 acrobatics) compared to the +2 to save ones and would be much less effective at delivering touch spells than a flying familiar.  I just thought maybe this was a reasonable use of a monkey as a familiar.

thoughts?

I'd say that is reasonable. If you look through the rules for "handle animal", you'll see that it covers teaching animals tricks. Additionally, I'll mail you the pathfinder "animal archive" that covers tricks that should do exactly what your describing.

Arcturus wrote:Hey GM, The Inner Sea World Guide isn't an approved text, is it? It contains a feat called Godless Healing which looks pretty useful.

Its in an official Pathfinder book, so it is fair game!

Would someone please restate the question regarding Mythic haste?

It is pretty clear in the description. You get your other actions as normal, plus an additional move action.

"Affected creatures gain an additional move action each round. The movement speed increase changes to 50 feet, to a maximum of three times the creature's normal speed for that movement type."

Yes, you could do a full attack and then move.

MAS wrote:
I'd say that is reasonable. If you look through the rules for "handle animal", you'll see that it covers teaching animals tricks. Additionally, I'll mail you the pathfinder "animal archive" that covers tricks that should do exactly what your describing.

Yeah, I saw that, but that skill specifically mentions animals with an Intelligence of 1 or 2 (less than the human minimum of 3).  I understand that would require "teaching" them and special skill for it.  This isn't really an animal anymore.  In fact, it is a Magical Beast, per the Familiar rules.

At 16th lvl, a familiar has an Intelligence of 13, smarter than an average human, smarter than my Sorcerer!  At lvl 8, the familiar gains the "speak with master" ability.  

I guess I don't understand why my Int 12 sorcerer, can't just speak to his Int 13 familiar in their common language (as he would speak to another human) and say.... "If I drop a Rod, you pick it up"  or "If I get knocked out, pinch my nose and pour a healing potion down my throat."  In theory, the monkey would beat the sorcerer at chess.

None of the other familiars could do this, since they lack hands (birds, weasels, toads, etc).  

   Would I need a "Handle Human" skill to instruct an Int 10 cohort or hired hand how to perform a simple task?

If it is a matter of game-balance mechanics and you simply don't want me to use a familiar in this way, then just say so and I will go with Bonded Item instead.   

I think you're over-analyzing it. What you're suggesting Chris is perfectly permitted given the critters Int. and the fact that you can train them or have them trained.

The familiar is "a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type" as per the rules. It is very specific.

The fact that the animal has a higher INT score than you is A) quite the conundrum for a GM and B) pretty freaking funny! I concur with your logical conclusion but for the game play to remain stable, there has to be some solid rule mechanic to support it. The INT score for a familiar seems pretty clearly intended to support spell casting, not as a general intellect rating.

To gain the additional functionality that exceeds the familiar rules, I offer a few options.

1) Drop the bonus +3 to acrobatics and be granted animal handling as a class skill instead. We will apply both your skill and the monkey's INT bonus to any checks to do tricks. Why does the animal with 13 INT still have to make trick rolls? Because while smart, it is still an animal and may (on a failed roll) revert to instinctual responses rather than logical ones. Its the one drawback to an otherwise great capability that you get by expanding the familiar's functionality.

2) Take leadership and have the monkey as both a familiar and a cohort. This would even allow your familiar to level in its own class, whatever you would choose that to be. Best value.

What do you think of these possibilities?

I think option #2 is most sensible.  A familiar that is super-smart and can speak common is more like a cohort or 2nd character with class abilities. At least that's how I would GM it.

Robyo wrote:I think option #2 is most sensible.  A familiar that is super-smart and can speak common is more like a cohort or 2nd character with class abilities. At least that's how I would GM it.

But - that is actually what a familiar ALREADY IS.  A wizard doesn't need to waste another feat.  Every lvl 16 familiar has an INT of 13 and can speak basic at lvl 8.

MAS wrote:
I concur with your logical conclusion but for the game play to remain stable, there has to be some solid rule mechanic to support it. The INT score for a familiar seems pretty clearly intended to support spell casting, not as a general intellect rating.

I don't know where you are getting that his INT has anything to do with spell casting.  A familiar cannot cast spells.  It simple states: Int: The familiar's Intelligence score.

I don't understand the need for a mechanic, again no Handle Human for hirelings.

A wizard doesn't need "handle animal" for his familiar to make touch attacks with his spells, recognize targets or communicate with his master.  A familiar is a class feature for a wizard and far more capable of understanding and performing tasks for the wizard than an druid's animal companion (who IS an animal and specifically states it requires Handle Animal - and has it as a class skill).   Handle Animal is not a wizard class skill for a reason.  

I am obviously in the minority here.   Forget it, request dropped.

Again, I think you two are over-thinking it. There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to do that IMO, Chris. Seems perfectly reasonable

A familiar is NOT the equivalent of a Cohort. Familiars really can't fight or cast spells or anything like a cohort can (those rules are bit broken IMO, but anyway)

I misunderstood your meaning, because you said a wizard (or arcane sorcerer) can "speak to his Int 13 familiar in their common language (as he would speak to another human)" and "every lvl 16 familiar has an INT of 13 and can speak basic at lvl 8," which was confusing.

A level 7 familiar can speak with animals of it's kind. Is that what you mean by basic? And a level 5 familiar can speak with it's master using a common language, but is not understood by other creatures except with magical help. So it's not really the language of Common.

I could care less if you have a smart-ass monkey. Kind of like the idea, actually. If he beats Ignis in chess, he'll be a charred monkey.

Robyo wrote:I misunderstood your meaning, because you said a wizard (or arcane sorcerer) can "speak to his Int 13 familiar in their common language (as he would speak to another human)" and "every lvl 16 familiar has an INT of 13 and can speak basic at lvl 8," which was confusing.

A level 7 familiar can speak with animals of it's kind. Is that what you mean by basic? And a level 5 familiar can speak with it's master using a common language, but is not understood by other creatures except with magical help. So it's not really the language of Common.

I could care less if you have a smart-ass monkey. Kind of like the idea, actually. If he beats Ignis in chess, he'll be a charred monkey.

sorry if that wasn't clear. the point is.... any familiar at 16 can speak to its master and has an INT of 13. there should be any need for taxing of additional feats or skills

Hey, no problem. Now that I understand, I agree with you. If we're not playing Pathfinder, at least we can argue about Pathfinder!

One other thing... Handle Animal is largely useless unless you're a Cavalier or Samurai (or someone that REALLY wants to train a mount). A familiar is magical creature for all intents and purposes that is like a 'super pet' for the wizard or whomever. They don't really need to be trained unless it's something that they would not be able to do normally.

My two cents....

Robyo wrote:Hey, no problem. Now that I understand, I agree with you. If we're not playing Pathfinder, at least we can argue about Pathfinder!

   right!

anyways, the smart ass monkey would be good comedic fun, but I am tired of arguing about, so I will just take a free "any spell I can cast" bonded item

Chirs2 wrote:

Robyo wrote:I think option #2 is most sensible.  A familiar that is super-smart and can speak common is more like a cohort or 2nd character with class abilities. At least that's how I would GM it.

But - that is actually what a familiar ALREADY IS.  A wizard doesn't need to waste another feat.  Every lvl 16 familiar has an INT of 13 and can speak basic at lvl 8.

MAS wrote:
I concur with your logical conclusion but for the game play to remain stable, there has to be some solid rule mechanic to support it. The INT score for a familiar seems pretty clearly intended to support spell casting, not as a general intellect rating.

I don't know where you are getting that his INT has anything to do with spell casting.  A familiar cannot cast spells.  It simple states: Int: The familiar's Intelligence score.

I don't understand the need for a mechanic, again no Handle Human for hirelings.

A wizard doesn't need "handle animal" for his familiar to make touch attacks with his spells, recognize targets or communicate with his master.  A familiar is a class feature for a wizard and far more capable of understanding and performing tasks for the wizard than an druid's animal companion (who IS an animal and specifically states it requires Handle Animal - and has it as a class skill).   Handle Animal is not a wizard class skill for a reason.  

I am obviously in the minority here.   Forget it, request dropped.

I am willing to continue discussing this if you are. No ones attacking anyone here, just trying to have a conversation. Not certain why your taking my desire to discuss the idea as such a big deal.

Wrote that entry after a late night of work, so please disregard my statement about familiar INT scores and spells. I had some sort of memory of them augmenting spells, but that may have been another system or book I was remembering.

Speaking with the familiar isn't the part I am looking at here. Not a doubt, you can speak to the familiar, it can understand and speak back.

Are you stating that you do not consider what your asking for to be an increased level of functionality from the standard capabilities being offered by a familiar?

Do all familiars offer the capability to deliver extra standard actions to the caster, regardless of the wizards condition? That is what I am trying to balance out in some way here, because I'm not certain that the familiar was intended to be able to dump potions down your throat when you go down in combat, or double the amount of potions you can take in a round.

I am also trying to make some clear definitions as to what the familiar can do, because I see all sort "grey area" here that is potentially very unbalancing. If it has the intelligence - can it wield a wand? Read a scroll? Logically, I would say yes. Game mechanic wise...that falls more under the stuff that a cohort would do, right?

Chirs2 wrote:

Robyo wrote:Hey, no problem. Now that I understand, I agree with you. If we're not playing Pathfinder, at least we can argue about Pathfinder!

   right!

anyways, the smart ass monkey would be good comedic fun, but I am tired of arguing about, so I will just take a free "any spell I can cast" bonded item

Not certain where the arguing impression came from, I was just trying to have a discussion.

I don't know where it's stated Matt but Familiars CANNOT use wands or scrolls. Dumping a potion down their master's throat might be a bit of a stretch but it seems as reasonable as performing a touch attack spell for the caster.

I was not asking for it to dump potions for me while I am standing or acting on my own, it was specifically just if I went down.

MAS wrote:
Are you stating that you do not consider what your asking for to be an increased level of functionality from the standard capabilities being offered by a familiar?

That is what I am trying to balance out in some way here, because I'm not certain that the familiar was intended to be able to dump potions down your throat when you go down in combat, or double the amount of potions you can take in a round.

right - which I asked this 9 posts ago.  

Chirs2 wrote:
If it is a matter of game-balance mechanics and you simply don't want me to use a familiar in this way, then just say so and I will go with Bonded Item instead.    

This is a separate issue from all of the arguments raised before post 85, which focused on whether I can communicate or whether the animal needs to be trained, etc.

Not all familiars are equal - some FLY, some offer a +2 to saves, etc.  A monkey's bonus is one of the weakest (if not the worst) and it doesn't fly.  I just thought maybe that balanced out its ability to fetch or play bartender.

And no, familiars can't do any of the other things you are suggesting, Josh is right.

Bottom line = You are the GM, if you feel it is unbalancing, then I won't do it.

whit10 wrote:I don't know where it's stated Matt but Familiars CANNOT use wands or scrolls.  Dumping a potion down their master's throat might be a bit of a stretch but it seems as reasonable as performing a touch attack spell for the caster.

Exactly. I was trying to illustrate the difference between whats seems perfectly logical and what the mechanics might bear well. It makes sense that may be able to some things, but the rules don't allow them. The whole point here is to try to firmly define the capabilities and ensure the mechanic is fair. If we can do that, I have no problem with the concept.

[quote="Chirs2"]I was not asking for it to dump potions for me while I am standing or acting on my own, it was specifically just if I went down.

[quote="MAS"]


Thats exactly why I suggested using the framework of tricks to define what you want to do! Without some reasonable pre-definition of the capability, why COULDNT you just have them double barrel you potions every round? Or maybe you could, with a trick!

As I said, I am open to the possibilities, I just want to ensure that we have a solid understanding of how it is working.

you kind of just answered your own question: "why can't they dump potions every round?" Because that's what the character is supposed to do and that would be a rules rape

MAS wrote:

Chirs2 wrote:I was not asking for it to dump potions for me while I am standing or acting on my own, it was specifically just if I went down.

MAS wrote:


Thats exactly why I suggested using the framework of tricks to define what you want to do! Without some reasonable pre-definition of the capability, why COULDNT you just have them double barrel you potions every round? Or maybe you could, with a trick!

As I said, I am open to the possibilities, I just want to ensure that we have a solid understanding of how it is working.

because drinking a potion takes the character's time, during his allotted 6 seconds to act.  The monkey picking up a rod (move) and putting it away (move) can happen on his turn, not the wizards.  If the wizard is KO'd the potion dump can be during his turn.

using a trick, again, implies a limited animal intelligence and taxing me to take a skill I shouldn't need.

A creature with a 13 INT should be able to understand and do anything it is capable of doing with its body.  An Eagle familiar could understand my request and even pick up a rod with its talons, but would be hard pressed to put it in a bag or open a potion.  A rat probably can't lift the 5 lbs. rod and doesn't have the thumbs for opening a potion.  A Toad can't do any of the above.  

But an Eagle can fly overhead and be a scout, a monkey can't (without a fly spell, etc).  A rat\weasel can sneak into tiny cracks and report back what it sees.  etc

There shouldn't be any limit to what a familiar can do beyond its INT and the capabilities of its body.


I can see your concern about a Familiar using a wand, honestly.  It IS within the printed rules:

Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar's total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar's ability to use. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.

So yes, any familiar that can hold a wand (in its mouth?), could use the masters Use Magic Device ranks.  

Monkey familiar with a wand of fireball?    good idea!
or a cure serious wand every round

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but probably not what was intended by the rule and should be subject to GM veto

   if the GM has all this time..... maybe we should start the fight   

Sure Chris, get hi mad and then pick a fight!  

navyik wrote:Sure Chris, get hi mad and then pick a fight!  

I tried taunting the GM in the other thread

Chirs2 wrote:

GM took another look at our characters and got SKKKKAAAIIIRRDDD!

that didn't work, so I am just trying to get his dander up any way I can   

Chirs2 wrote:   if the GM has all this time..... maybe we should start the fight   

He took a break from website building to try and keep the discussion alive!!!!

GM RULING. Your good on the monkey. Its a grey area IMO, so lets try and keep it reasonable. GM reserves the right to put a swift stop to any unbalancing MONKEY BUSINESS.

  


Hey, here is an idea. This was going to end up being part of the adventure anyway, but you guys need something to keep you busy for a couple days.

Everybody go check out the "Planning Phase" thread, and get busy you slackers!!!

MAS wrote:
GM RULING. Your good on the monkey. Its a grey area IMO, so lets try and keep it reasonable. GM reserves the right to put a swift stop to any unbalancing MONKEY BUSINESS.
 

  monkey business, yup

Rasso adjusted for monkey - should be good to go now

All right, I need to be sure I'm multiplying damage properly. I have a weapon that deals 2d6+23, and I score a critical, do I roll 2d6 twice and add 23, or do I roll 2d6 twice and add 23 twice? I know additional damage dice (such as corrosion, fire, etc) do not multiply.

And with a feat such as power attack, it would be 2d6+35. Does that multiply the same?

Now that I'm really reading it, Core rules seems unclear to me.

Also, the mythic version of that feat seems sucky. The only difference I can see is spending a mythic power point to ignore penalties to hit on a power attack roll.

yes, you roll the damage twice and add all modifiers on each roll, then total it up. Critical hits are nasty, especially when you have a weapon with x3 multiplier or better. You DO add power attack damage into that if you are using the feat (since you lose attack bonus, you still get the damage).

You're right about the Mythic Version of Power Attack if you're not going to use combat maneuvers. I'd suggest a different one but that's just me.

whit10 wrote:yes, you roll the damage twice and add all modifiers on each roll, then total it up.  Critical hits are nasty, especially when you have a weapon with x3 multiplier or better.  You DO add power attack damage into that if you are using the feat (since you lose attack bonus, you still get the damage).

You're right about the Mythic Version of Power Attack if you're not going to use combat maneuvers.  I'd suggest a different one but that's just me.

I'm going to go with Mythic Vital Strike I think. I did 10 test rolls, and with Greater Vital Strike and my primary weapon I'm averaging around 200 points of damage per strike. Double that for a Critical. If I'm using my scabbard of keen edges, my crit range on my main weapon is 16-20 so that's solid.

Also, Mythic Vital strike does not consume mythic points, according to the feat description.

The ARG has 2 feats, Martial Versatility and Martial Mastery, which let me use my combat feats (such as Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization) with all weapons in the same general category that these feats apply to. In my case, Heavy Blades.

I'm gonna go with those. I was thinking about Godless Healing (recover 1d8+ 16 hp 1/day) from the Inner Sea World Guide, but really the only time I would need to use it would be when I'm negative HP, and therefore unconscious and unable to use it..