The best interest

---

An investment in knowledge pays the best interest.
-Benjamin Franklin

---

The Champions complete their mission and quickly return back through the portal.

Gour stands ready with a wand in each hand, dousing each champion with healing and dispel magic as they emerge.  

Having assured that the Champions are in no immediate danger, he motions towards the map table with a nod of his head and low grunt.

Commander Valum seems occupied with charts and books, but when the Champions settle around the table, he takes a moment to mark his place amongst them.

With a slight limp that favors his left hind leg, he turns his attention to the Champions.

"AHHH.....you have returned in victory!" he exclaims in a rich bass voice. "The phylactery vault is destroyed, and you have thus prevented 2% of the Vexian Lich Caste from ever rejuvenating again! A win, yes, yes.....a win for us all!"

"Let us gather our thoughts, and focus them on reviewing the battle. There is much to be learned in such a pursuit!"

The holographic display projects the battlespace onto the table.



"First things first, and in honesty....the late nature of the mission's change was unfortunate. Keeping in mind that you had minimal time to ready yourself...what do you think as to your efforts to prepare?"

Were proper spells in place?
Were strengths and weakness' accounted for?
What was the plan upon arrival?

Griz shrugs, licking his fur to remove the sour taste of undeath. The table shakes as his tummy rumbles, then he shrinks down into a medium half man/bear krynos hybrid lookin' thing. "Grz fust; not rast," his words only intelligable to those who know him well.

Gartholomew nods at Grizzly with understanding.

"We had the right spells at the right times. We could have deployed better. Gotten Grizzle in better position. I got pretty banged up, I could have used his help beside me as soon as I entered the room."

Garth notices a skull fragment from an obliterated corpse guard sticking to the front of his armor and picks it off casually, tossing it over his shoulder. It looked to be a cheekbone and part of an eye socked, with strings of dried up flesh still attached. He absentmindedly wipes his hand on his pants.

Privately in his own head, he pictures himself in a combat saddle, astride Grizzle in huge dire bear form, riding into battle..

He can see in his mind's eye throngs of terrified enemies trying helplessly to flee in terror before the onslaught, being tossed about like rag dolls by the huge bear's wicked black claws, and mowed down mercilessly by Garth ' own gleaming blades..

Garth smiles to himself.

Yes, I must befriend this bear.., he thinks.

To Gour he says "Not bad. We got the job done. Where's the food around here?"

Nodding again to Grizzle, he queries "You hungry? Let's go find some lunch." He casts a sidelong glance at the odd old wizard Rasso.

"Let the brains sort this out."

Garth bangs his right fist against his breastplate, and holds it up at the level of his head, his elbow bent in a 45 degree angle. A salute to the champions.

With that he turns and departs, his cloak swirling around him as he does. He's off to find something to eat, and to see if this place has an armory.

Jules seems unhappy with the fight... "damned undead are too resistant to bullets. I gotta go back to the workshop and think up some exploding bullets or something."

Arcturus2 wrote:

With that he turns and departs, his cloak swirling around him as he does. He's off to find something to eat, and to see if this place has an armory.

"Not so fast Gartholomew........we have only just begun this discussion." intones Commander Valum, in a way somehow friendly, and threatening, yet firm.

Garth considers that he may be best off not angering the Ancient Dragon.

"It wasss ssso much fun to insscinerate the evil doersss! When can Ignisss do thisss again?"

"hahEha!" laughs Gour as Garths suggests all was in place.

"The fighter who knowingly lept into a dark basement without anyway to see in the dark, says everything was fine! HAHAH!"

I would definitely like to switch characters Matt. I think I'm done with any fantasy gun guys for a while

"Gentlemen - please focus on the task at hand!" roars Commander Valum. "We have protocols in this outfit, and I expect you will adhere to the agreement you made when you were brought here. Grizzle has suggested better deployment positions, and Jules has suggested re-assessing weaponry. These both bear relevance to the question of your preparedness. What have you all to add?"

whit10 wrote:I would definitely like to switch characters Matt.  I think I'm done with any fantasy gun guys for a while

Cool - but Jules is still in this scene. When the next cycle begins, you can bring in someone new.

word

Gartholomew nods his acquiescence to Cmdr. Vallum.

"As you wish."

Garth's neck stiffens and his head snaps erect at the perceived insult from Gour.

He turns and casts upon the man a baleful stare. His deep purple eyes flash in the light of the chamber. His hands are resting on his belt, and his left makes an automatic and almost imperceptible twitch towards the keen short sword sheathed there. After several seconds, he speaks.

"I did not in fact say everything was 'fine'. I stated that we had enough spells in place and everything was accomplished as was requested. There is quite a difference, Gour. Jules granted me sight in plenty of time."

He crosses his powerful arms across his chest.

"Besides" he declares with confidence "I fight well in the dark anyway."

He inwardly hopes his posture and words reflect his strength and confidence, though he fears they may instead betray his youth.

"It is not my nature to criticize my allies, even those I do not personally choose. All played their part well."

Under his breath he mutters..

"Only a fool would believe one can enter battle prepared for everything"

... "or a man that is prepared for anything" Jules winks.

"Besides, I don't remember you having a whole lot of advice fer us. Mr. Commander, sir." with barely concealed contempt

Arcturus2 wrote:Gartholomew nods his acquiescence to Cmdr. Vallum.

"As you wish."

Garth's neck stiffens and his head snaps erect at the perceived insult from Gour.

He turns and casts upon the man a baleful stare. His deep purple eyes flash in the light of the chamber. His hands are resting on his belt, and his left makes an automatic and almost imperceptible twitch towards the keen short sword sheathed there. After several seconds, he speaks.

"I did not in fact say everything was 'fine'. I stated that we had enough spells in place and everything was accomplished as was requested. There is quite a difference, Gour. Jules granted me sight in plenty of time."

He crosses his powerful arms across his chest.

"Besides" he declares with confidence "I fight well in the dark anyway."

He inwardly hopes his posture and words reflect his strength and confidence, though he fears they may instead betray his youth.

"It is not my nature to criticize my allies, even those I do not personally choose. All played their part well."

Under his breath he mutters..

"Only a fool would believe one can enter battle prepared for everything"

Great role-playing Dan!!!!!!

Commander Valum looks somewhat perplexed...bordering on disturbed, If one were to read the body language of a Dragon very well.

"Save your contempt and adolescent egos, this is a WAR and you have earned no occasion to dismiss its danger so lightly. I begin to question the need for your presence, if you cannot behave with any basic professional decorum long enough to asses a battle. This fight requires CHAMPIONS, not CHILDREN. It is very telling of your nature...this instant shift into petulance. If you cannot handle the responsibility, we will port you back to your soon-to-be-destroyed worlds to die with your people."

As he speaks his stance seems to straighten, as if the wounds that caused the scars he bears are gone. While all of your previous dealings with this Dragon have been perfectly civil, something in his stance reminds you that he is a millenniums old, gargantuan-sized, living weapon bred to slay creatures more powerful than the Gods themselves.

Jules just looks back at him with no change in his demeanor nor expression.

"Perhaps you should consider a different plan of action if the words of one small mortal bother you this much." (Jules have never really even seen a dragon before)

you're more than welcome to just woosh him back to whence he came, BTW

Garth looks at the ancient dragon and can see his upset. Bowing his head slightly, he speaks.
"Forgive my impertince, Lord Commander Valum.."

Casting a quick sidelong glance at Gour..

"And forgive me if I see nothing to laugh at regarding that fight."

Once again addressing the Dragon Cmdr., Garth continues..

"My world was dead before I got here, commander. Laid to waste by ghoulish hordes. I have nowhere to go."

Garth straightens and meets Valum eyes with his own.

With a measured tone of mingled conviction and respect he says to the Dragon..

"If I am to die anyway, I'd rather die fighting! My sword is yours to command."

Gour returns a look to Garth that seems to say "fair enough"...and goes back to fiddling with the portal.

The Dragon collects himself, once again the unimposing wyrm that the Champions are accustomed to.

"Perhaps you do not understand the intent, so I will make it clear. We will review the battle. We will discuss what went well, and what could be improved. We will share observations about both the enemy's tactics, and our own, and strive to develop a clear understanding of the enemy, and ourselves, in order to better secure victory in the future."

"Since, as I said, your time to prepare for the mission was limited, we will skip over what is typically the first section. A review is usually begun by comparing "what was supposed to happen" to "what actually happened". Here, we would examine how and why reality differed from the plan...but since the plan was to take advantage of a quick opportunity, there isn't much to discuss."

"Instead, we start with this.

What are three things that worked well, and should be sustained in the future?"

Gour's voice answers quickly - "The Champions did an excellent job of suppressing enemy spellcasting and movement by positioning themselves in AoO threat zones."

"Indeed they did!" Agrees Commander Valum. "they would do well to continue that. What else?" he says, looking at the party arrayed around the table.

MAS wrote:Commander Valum looks somewhat perplexed...bordering on disturbed, If one were to read the body language of a Dragon very well.

"Save your contempt and adolescent egos, this is a WAR and you have earned no occasion to dismiss its danger so lightly. I begin to question the need for your presence, if you cannot behave with any basic professional decorum long enough to asses a battle. This fight requires CHAMPIONS, not CHILDREN. It is very telling of your nature...this instant shift into petulance. If you cannot handle the responsibility, we will port you back to your soon-to-be-destroyed worlds to die with your people."

As he speaks his stance seems to straighten, as if the wounds that caused the scars he bears are gone. While all of your previous dealings with this Dragon have been perfectly civil, something in his stance reminds you that he is a millenniums old, gargantuan-sized, living weapon bred to slay creatures more powerful than the Gods themselves.

Rasso, full of confidence and pride, speaks with a polite and measured tone, "On my world, like many others, war is a constant state of affairs.  I have watched generals in tall hats thump their chests when a great battle is won.  Human kings used to build tall statues and carve their names in stone, so the world would remember their victories."

Rasso looks back and forth between the Champions, Valum and Gour.  "I see it is no different here.  Generals and commanders send their soldiers blindly into battle, with insufficient information and false intelligence.  Then, when the men on the field snatch victory in spite of clumsy planning, they are scolded and bullied by their superior offices in a vain effort to deflect the attention away from their own inadequacies.  We are Champions.  And we will not be bullied."

Rasso gestures to the battle map area, "Yes, let's analyze our orders and tactics.  First of all, we are shown a vault.  The image is illuminated and we can see the details of walls and columns.  Yet the room is plunged in darkness upon our arrival.  Such bungled intelligence may have killed lesser soldiers, but somehow I suspect our lives mean little to either of you.  Then you have the nerve to blame Gareth for your failed reconnaissance."

Rasso gestures to the party, "We did enhance our combat ability with certain spells.  However, we were told initially that transport through the portal might strip any protective spells in place.  So we made a tactical decision to only apply some magics and to save others, lest they would all be stripped and wasted.  But yet again, we received false information.  Was this just complacency? Negligence? or something done deliberately and with intent?"

Rasso strokes his moustache in thought, "Yes, I have learned some valuable lessons today.  First and foremost, I shall no longer trust the intelligence... no, that is too strong of a word, it implies competency... the advice of an iguana and midget."

Rasso raises a warding hand, "Now let's see who is the adolescent here, shall we?  Can a dragon admit to his own short-comings or will he act like a child and resort to threats and intimidation?  "

Rasso adds, "As for our performance, it was sloppy and poorly coordinated.  We need to get the heavy hitters in first and more quickly.  We need to focus our attacks on the same targets to remove them as a threat and not spread out of damage, especially our area effect spells.  If the portals will not strip our magic, we need to double our buffs before entering. We also need to control choke points, like doorways and use obstacles to create line-of-sight barriers."

and while we are in review mode, just a discussion topic for GMs.  I believe that the cones in this image and other fireball images are incorrect



walls block spells, as would the columns.  The cones are correct for total area, but anything behind a wall or a column would be blocked from the spell's effect.  I will try to edit the image to show what I think it should look like.

just my opinion, open to discussion of course



I drew red arrows to show blocked LOS from the spell caster.

I know the cones covered all areas together, but Rasso and Jules should not have been hit by the blue cone, since they were blocked by the pillar.  Griz would not have been hit by the white cone, since the pillar and the wall by Jules blocked him.  The blue cone is iffy, but looks like maybe the corner would catch him (yellow).  Same with Gareth in the white cone.

Along the same lines, I don't think that Rasso could counter the blue cone, since he has no LOS to the caster either.  LOS works both ways.

Damn dude, Rasso is NUTS!

  

Garth speaks up quickly in an effort to change the subject and avoid a fight.

Standing there by the map table with his arms still folded across his chest, he surveys the visual before the champions.

"It seems" he says, "that one thing we did well was improvise. Keep in mind, we'd never worked together as a team before today..."

He continues quickly "It was a good learning experience. Now we know what to expect from each other. Next time we will be better."

After a pause he adds thoughtfully- "And, we won."

Chirs2 wrote:

MAS wrote:Commander Valum looks somewhat perplexed...bordering on disturbed, If one were to read the body language of a Dragon very well.

"Save your contempt and adolescent egos, this is a WAR and you have earned no occasion to dismiss its danger so lightly. I begin to question the need for your presence, if you cannot behave with any basic professional decorum long enough to asses a battle. This fight requires CHAMPIONS, not CHILDREN. It is very telling of your nature...this instant shift into petulance. If you cannot handle the responsibility, we will port you back to your soon-to-be-destroyed worlds to die with your people."

As he speaks his stance seems to straighten, as if the wounds that caused the scars he bears are gone. While all of your previous dealings with this Dragon have been perfectly civil, something in his stance reminds you that he is a millenniums old, gargantuan-sized, living weapon bred to slay creatures more powerful than the Gods themselves.

Rasso, full of confidence and pride, speaks with a polite and measured tone, "On my world, like many others, war is a constant state of affairs.  I have watched generals in tall hats thump their chests when a great battle is won.  Human kings used to build tall statues and carve their names in stone, so the world would remember their victories."

Rasso looks back and forth between the Champions, Valum and Gour.  "I see it is no different here.  Generals and commanders send their soldiers blindly into battle, with insufficient information and false intelligence.  Then, when the men on the field snatch victory in spite of clumsy planning, they are scolded and bullied by their superior offices in a vain effort to deflect the attention away from their own inadequacies.  We are Champions.  And we will not be bullied."

Rasso gestures to the battle map area, "Yes, let's analyze our orders and tactics.  First of all, we are shown a vault.  The image is illuminated and we can see the details of walls and columns.  Yet the room is plunged in darkness upon our arrival.  Such bungled intelligence may have killed lesser soldiers, but somehow I suspect our lives mean little to either of you.  Then you have the nerve to blame Gareth for your failed reconnaissance."

Rasso gestures to the party, "We did enhance our combat ability with certain spells.  However, we were told initially that transport through the portal might strip any protective spells in place.  So we made a tactical decision to only apply some magics and to save others, lest they would all be stripped and wasted.  But yet again, we received false information.  Was this just complacency? Negligence? or something done deliberately and with intent?"

Rasso strokes his moustache in thought, "Yes, I have learned some valuable lessons today.  First and foremost, I shall no longer trust the intelligence... no, that is too strong of a word, it implies competency... the advice of an iguana and midget."


Rasso raises a warding hand, "Now let's see who is the adolescent here, shall we?  Can a dragon admit to his own short-comings or will he act like a child and resort to threats and intimidation?  "

Rasso adds, "As for our performance, it was sloppy and poorly coordinated.  We need to get the heavy hitters in first and more quickly.  We need to focus our attacks on the same targets to remove them as a threat and not spread out of damage, especially our area effect spells.  If the portals will not strip our magic, we need to double our buffs before entering.  We also need to control choke points, like doorways and use obstacles to create line-of-sight barriers."

"HAHAHAHA! Oh, mortal! You jest, surely?!?!?!? You do, of course, remember the briefing...."

(cut and pasted from the "A deeper darkness" thread)


"The vault is located nearly a mile beneath a mountain. Our team of Gobiln reconnaissance specialists spent almost a year tracking it down, and most of the team was killed navigating the trap filled maze that guards it. They were able to install a beacon which permits us to project a portal onto the entry room."

- The portal will manifest along the axis of 30/E-H, as shown.
- Behind the portal leading upwards is a steep staircase 1000 feet in height.
- There are no other entrances, exits, or attached rooms
- The ceilings are 15 feet in Height
- The set of rooms is carved into raw stone
- There is a heavy door of unknown substance and design between the two rooms. Its is 10 ft wide and 10 ft tall.
- There is no lighting present
- Temperature is average, and breathable air is present
- The six pillars in the second room store 200 phylactery each. The set on the dias contains 10 larger phylactery.
- It is likely that there is at least one guard in the first room.
- Remember, Portals manifest in one round, and can you will arrive in the next. Whatever is near the portal will be aware of your arrival!

"And again - I am disappointed. Presented with an opportunity to discuss the battle - you waste time squabbling and pointing fingers rather than an analyze...make foolish claims that only point to your own shortcomings, and then spew insults???"

---

Wow. I am going to stop the roleplay here. I am sincerely absolutely baffled on why you guys chose to react this way, rather than take the easy - possibly interesting route of dissecting the encounter together.

Was it really SO big of a stretch for a GM to ask players to roleplay a guided discussion, that characters decided to instantly try to bail on the scene, or just outright destroy any possibility of moving forward with these characters in the campaign setting?

Who says we aren't roleplaying?  Jules isn't afraid of some lizard trying to act all tough...  you've seen one dead lizard you've seen 'em all. (Dragons ain't that tough when you have awesome saves and it's easy to hit them).

Jules will look impressively at Rasso and mutter "next time I'm in a war, you da general I'm gonna follow."

and Matt, I said before things had even ended that I was unsatisfied with this guy.  He does one thing really well and that's it's and it boring.  My bad, no question, but you don't need to get snippy about it.  We've always been like this. lol

I guess I'm trying to figure out what you were trying to get across with this? What, are we debriefing or something?

Yeah, I thought we were role -playing this..?

Lots of big guys, lots of big egos. This good time for character development outside of combat.

I thought it was going well.   

...and just to ask, you won't allow evil characters, right?

Deep in animal emptiness, Griz suddenly realizes everyone has stopped talking and are staring at him... Without a word, his face says it all: what, doesn't everybody lick their own butthole?  

I have to agree with Josh and Dan here = this is roleplaying!

We have a group of super-high level, mythic-powered characters.  Rasso in particular has an epic ego, no doubt.  Read his bio - he calls himself an Archmage of the blah, blah blah.... he spouted speeches at the wizards halls (I never wrote how anyone reacted to his rant).  He volunteered to go into the void and whoop some ass, which is pretty cocky.  Rasso is feeling particularly powerful given that he almost single-handedly beat the last fight, by dazing and locking-down the lich guards.

Rasso is roleplaying the tactical dissection of the meeting.  In his eyes, the dragon is a crappy commander and didn't provide good intel.  This isn't the first time Rasso has been making noise about the portal intel -

Chirs2 wrote:BUMP from the other thread, that still needs an answer before we jump

Chirs2 wrote:

MAS wrote:

Chirs2 wrote:

MAS wrote:
Deliver the God Seed to Don Taen, then keep him alive while he uses it to activate an artifact called the "Lantern of Dawn".

And that was the requested bit of intel we still need - where is Don Taen?
can we see the location via scrying?  can someone give me a general description of where he is?  is he expecting us or just his local heroes?

You do not have any scrying capability on the siege, as it was focused on the movements of the Seed since the Pregen party removed it from its hiding place. You'll need to interface with the pregens for that info.
He would be expecting the locals. To the Oberon's staff's knowledge, Don Taen is unaware of the Larger Plenary Prime and its complexities.

so nobody on the staff or the God Oberon himself can even give me a verbal description of where to take the Seed???    
some god he is
I am not interested in the siege or the enemy - I want to know where the city is, ergo where to take the Seed once we secure it.  

and Rasso did talk about the group's specific lack of coordination and tactical decisions.  I also agree with Josh, Rasso isn't afraid of 1 dragon in a small room.  Unless you are using some crazy rules not from the books, we would take a single CR20 ancient gold in about 1 round.  Gareth could kill him in 1 blow    And if you are, fine, but Rasso wouldn't know about it.

anyways, I mean no disrespect to your game or you as GM.  I meant it in the vein of roleplaying and having fun.  I did try to also do some tactical discussion as you asked.  But in particular Rasso doesn't like bullies, he has been bullied his whole life for being queer.

Chirs2 wrote:Rasso is feeling particularly powerful given that he almost single-handedly beat the last fight, by dazing and locking-down the lich guards.

Meh, Garth still had the best kill count!  

I'm just funnin' with ya man, Rasso (and Peabody) did great. Couldn't have done it without them.

I actually wish the fight had gone longer, I don't feel like we got enough of a chance to test out what Griz can do. I don't think we saw everything Ignis is capable of either.

All in all, good fight. Garth forgives Jules for the sore spot on his head where he got wand-whapped.   

I'd like to find a way where Garth can share space with Grizzle when he is huge sized. The Mythic feat Titan Bane maybe..

I like the tactic of using Peabody to handle some of Rasso' s utility type actions, leaving him free to spell cast. Nice roleplaying with the visuals on him retrieving golf clubs, etc.

Having him gather and activate the stones was a good idea. I know we quit playing it out when Rasso put em in checkmate with his rape vines, but if it had gone on longer that tactic may have been the difference between success and defeat.

Maybe in the future he can be used to bring potions, items, whatever to our DPS guys so we're not burning unnecessary move actions on that kind of thing. I dunno.

Jules was useful for negating a big part of the drain Garth suffered and keeping his damage bonuses and saves high. Also, having ranged support was nice. He actually dealt solid damage, and was able to spread it out.

I guess it doesn't matter so much since Josh isn't feeling like playing him in the next encounter but I wonder what kind of gunslinger deeds he could pull off to turn a battle? Sunder a weapon, use a bullet to knock a glow rock into a different square, shoot out/on a light, lever, etc..

I'd really like to get a better look at what Ignis has 'under the hood' .. looking at his character sheet, he's got a lot of high damage spells, ranged touch energy attacks, and generally some nifty stuff we just didn't get a chance to see.

As far as tactics, we had the right idea.. if we had gotten Grizzle in the room sooner or if we had gone longer, we could have taken advantage of flanking bonuses. I think that's gonna be big for us going forward. Garth I think did well positioning himself for AoOs, he got one off. Like someone said before, those are brutal freebies and we need to look to maximize those, IMO.

Using Rasso in the rear (no pun intended but still.. heh heh, it's funny cuz he's gay)
to counter spells and buff/ debuff was good.

So that's my .02 cents going forward.

Use our casters like we did to buff on the way in, we got that right. Rasso really nailed his performance. We can do better getting our DPS guys front and center, make sure they're flanking/setting up the AoO as much as possible.

Speaking to each other as PCs in game is good roleplaying, but also good for coordinating attacks. We could do that a bit better maybe.

Garth is pleased. He wants a +5 cold iron vorpal greatsword for Christmas, btw.

Arcturus2 wrote:
Meh, Garth still had the best kill count!  

Indeed, Gareth is why Rasso isn't scared of old scale-butt. Tentacles were just the perfect spell for the job - grapple vs low CMD mages. Might never be used again, but worth it for that 1 fight.

Arcturus2 wrote:
Using Rasso in the rear (no pun intended but still.. heh heh, it's funny cuz he's gay)
to counter spells and buff/ debuff was good.

huh-huh, huh-huh, he said gay



Seriously, though, that is a good tactical dissection Mr. Dan. I agree we didn't see Igniss' full capabilities. Rasso is counting on Igniss for damage and he will focus on counterspell and enemy control spells, if possible.

Our tactics might be totally different on a 200x200 map with flying enemies. I think it will just depend on what we see each time.

good stuff Dan.

Gunslingers are really weird, most of those things you mentioned wouldn't have done us any good. In fact, most of the GS grit powers and what not are very situational (and mostly useless against the undead). I don't think he does crap for damage. I can make an archer that does nearly twice as much and has more options.

Chris is right, IMO, about a larger map and the possibility of flying enemies. That was basically why I didn't play my paladin. I'd like to actually be able to have him fight the way he is supposed to... that map would have negated that

"It isss with the greatessst ressspect that we mussst addressss the ancient dragon commander," Ignis chimes in. "I remember the efreeti eldersss' talesss of daysss of yore when the dragon empire ruled the vassst multiverssse and all ssspecies were sssubssservient to the draconic onesss. Those timesss have long sssincsse passst, but it isss important to remember the ssstatus of our esssteemed commander."

Arcturus2 wrote:

Chirs2 wrote:Rasso is feeling particularly powerful given that he almost single-handedly beat the last fight, by dazing and locking-down the lich guards.

Meh, Garth still had the best kill count!  

I'm just funnin' with ya man, Rasso (and Peabody) did great. Couldn't have done it without them.

I actually wish the fight had gone longer, I don't feel like we got enough of a chance to test out what Griz can do. I don't think we saw everything Ignis is capable of either.

All in all, good fight. Garth forgives Jules for the sore spot on his head where he got wand-whapped.   

I'd like to find a way where Garth can share space with Grizzle when he is huge sized. The Mythic feat Titan Bane maybe..

I like the tactic of using Peabody to handle some of Rasso' s utility type actions, leaving him free to spell cast. Nice roleplaying with the visuals on him retrieving golf clubs, etc.

Having him gather and activate the stones was a good idea. I know we quit playing it out when Rasso put em in checkmate with his rape vines, but if it had gone on longer that tactic may have been the difference between success and defeat.

Maybe in the future he can be used to bring potions, items, whatever to our DPS guys so we're not burning unnecessary move actions on that kind of thing. I dunno.

Jules was useful for negating a big part of the drain Garth suffered and keeping his damage bonuses and saves high. Also, having ranged support was nice. He actually dealt solid damage, and was able to spread it out.

I guess it doesn't matter so much since Josh isn't feeling like playing him in the next encounter but I wonder what kind of gunslinger deeds he could pull off to turn a battle? Sunder a weapon, use a bullet to knock a glow rock into a different square, shoot out/on a light, lever, etc..

I'd really like to get a better look at what Ignis has 'under the hood' .. looking at his character sheet, he's got a lot of high damage spells, ranged touch energy attacks, and generally some nifty stuff we just didn't get a chance to see.

As far as tactics, we had the right idea.. if we had gotten Grizzle in the room sooner or if we had gone longer, we could have taken advantage of flanking bonuses. I think that's gonna be big for us going forward. Garth I think did well positioning himself for AoOs, he got one off. Like someone said before, those are brutal freebies and we need to look to maximize those, IMO.

Using Rasso in the rear (no pun intended but still.. heh heh, it's funny cuz he's gay)
to counter spells and buff/ debuff was good.

So that's my .02 cents going forward.

Use our casters like we did to buff on the way in, we got that right. Rasso really nailed his performance.  We can do better getting our DPS guys front and center, make sure they're flanking/setting up the AoO as much as possible.

Speaking to each other as PCs in game is good roleplaying, but also good for coordinating attacks. We could do that a bit better maybe.

Garth is pleased. He wants a +5 cold iron vorpal greatsword for Christmas, btw.

All excellent feedback! This was exactly the stuff I was trying to get to - in character.

Robyo wrote:"It isss with the greatessst ressspect that we mussst addressss the ancient dragon commander," Ignis chimes in. "I remember the efreeti eldersss' talesss of daysss of yore when the dragon empire ruled the vassst multiverssse and all ssspecies were sssubssservient to the draconic onesss. Those timesss have long sssincsse passst, but it isss important to remember the ssstatus of our esssteemed commander."

Commander Valum nods to Igniss, returning the statement of respect.

After Rasso's rant, Dr. Peabody begins ruffling through the golf bag's side pocket.  He produces what looks like a bait & tackle box, but it is filled with rows of prescription bottles, herbs and ointments.  He quickly whips up Rasso's evening pharmacological cocktail



Rasso raises an eyebrow and quickly downs his pills.  He promptly passes out on the flying carpet.

Dr. Peabody straightens himself up, collects the martini glass and wipes a bit of drool off Rasso's chin.  Dr. Peabody speaks clearly in common (Permanent Tongues spell affects him too and his Int is higher than Rasso), with a proper British accent, "Pardon my master, he was off his med schedule, portal lag and all. Nasty business, it makes master very cranky. Do continue with your tactical debriefing."

As Dr. Peabody is putting the pill box away, he adds, "If I may venture a humble observation.... the Corpse Guards seemed to trigger off anyone entering the room.  Perhaps, if no one entered the room, you could have simply burned the Brightstones without opposition.  It was a curious decision to continue entering the room, one after another.  Apparently, I have much to learn of human strategy."

Gartholomew raises an eyebrow at the eloquent little simian. Even after everything he has seen so far, he continues to be surprised by the creature's antics.

His eyes sparkle and he cracks a grin.

"Huh.. You have a point, my small friend. It never even crossed my mind to stay back."

He rubs his chin with one gloved hand and stares off into the room, silently musing to himself.

"I've been a loner my whole life. Group tactics are entirely new to me. No man or beast has ever fought by my side. When I see a problem, I simply attack and I kill it"

He smacks his right fist into his left palm for emphasis.

"However, I believe that I can be useful to the Champion's cause. Someone just needs to tell me which problems to kill first".

Dr. Peabody continues to muse while picking something out of his fur, "Perhaps tactical discussions would prove more fruitful before crossing the portal in the future.  Each scenario will likely be unique in nature, so what we observed here may or may not have any bearing in the future.  From my own limited experience in battle, it seems the more magical inoculations that can be administered proactively, the better.  It is a principle I call "The Economy of Magic" whereby protective magical effects have a diminishing value when used in the midst of battle as that takes time away from actually neutralizing the enemies.  Contrarily, even the least significant dweomers have a compounding effect, much like interest on capital, when applied with forethought.  An enchanted aegis (shield spell) only needs to block a singular arcane bolt to be considered a worthwhile investment."

Griz nods in agreement with the monkey, absently gnawing at the edge of a large wooden sign that hangs from a thick rope around his neck. The sign reads "DO NOT FEED!"

Good role-playing and tactical analysis, excellent!

Since your all dying to know some of the details, Ill just hit the "reveal button" and lay out a few points of interest.

1) The Corpse guards were 12 standard, non-mythic Lichs.

2) The 4 Lichs in main room downed potions of invisibility once the action in the landing room started. The "appear from no-where and cast a spell effect" was simply the invisibility spell dropping because they made an attack.

3) Champions that had "see invisibility" (Rasso) did not have LOS on their positions, and where therefor unable to see them.

4) The "gong of doom" was a CR 13 Necromantic Deathtrap.

5) I triggered it through "circumstance" because the first 2 guards died so fast,  I decided that if the encounter was going to be challenging, it had to go hot.

Note: Anybody have any documentation to state whether a Dispel magic can suppress a magical trap?  I never could find anything that definitively covered it. Technically, only a rouge can disarm a magical trap. This one could also be turned off with an appropriate level "turn undead" as well.

6) The 6 phylactery pillars were hollow, and each contained a Lich Guard. The guards exited the pillars through secret doors built onto the west facing of the pillar. This kept them out of line of sight untill needed.

Notes on encounter design/intent:

The main reason I moved the fight inside, as opposed to continuing the originally presented battle, was that I wanted to get a look at the mythic rules, and play at this level in general, prior to opening the battle space up and dealing with flight and long range combat.

The intent was to present a challenge by over-matching the party's numbers. Debuffs launched by the first two guards, coupled with the Necromantic death trap's ability to heal the undead, were intended to hamstring the party and force a fast and desperate operational tempo.

The encounter design was weakened by my choice to only include spellcasters. Without melee forces to slow the Champion's advance, the party was left to maneuver at will.

Additionally, in seeking to inflate enemy numbers, I was forced to use creatures that were far too low of a CR contend with the party. They simply could not reach the DCs needed to hit, effect, or defend from the Champions.

The necromantic death trap was chosen when the party had a rouge and paladin. I decided to keep it anyway.

Notes on Tactics:

The party did well controlling enemy freedom through positioning themselves in AoO threat zones.

The party did well having "most" of its bases covered - counter-spells, shield spells, equipment load-outs that offered extra utility.

The party did well adapting to changing requirements, as the BrightStones were activated / deactivated / passed off /moved.

Any questions about the encounter?

MAS wrote:
Note: Anybody have any documentation to state whether a Dispel magic can suppress a magical trap?  I never could find anything that definitively covered it. Technically, only a rouge can disarm a magical trap. This one could also be turned off with an appropriate level "turn undead" as well.
Any questions about the encounter?

Josh and I had an email discussion about this, so I figure it is worth sharing.

In general, I believe the intention in PF is that only rogues can disarm magical traps, which is why it says that and does not say anything about magical traps in the description of Dispel Magic.

Thinking creatively, it is a clever idea to use Detect Magic and Dispel Magic.  However, Detect is really only revealing auras and wouldn't necessarily reveal the exact location of the trap.  It wouldn't reveal anything if the trigger on a magical trap was a mechanical plate and not a 'magic eye' for instance.  At best Dispel Magic would only subdue the trap for 1d4 rounds, but that would require a specific target.

Dispel Magic also talks about only being able to dispel on-going effects, not instantaneous ones, which is what counter-spell is for and that wouldn't apply to a trap either.

I can see the debate for both sides, but again I would tend to side with the intent being for only rogues to have that special, niche, ability.


GM - can you take a look at post N*21?

I was hoping to get some clarification on the LOS and LOE (line of effect) issue I mentioned, just to make sure we are on a similar page regarding spell effects.  In that example, a fireball would behave differently, because it doesn't explode until it reaches its target square, so the explosion would happen past the pillars.  I think a cone in particular has its point of origin at the caster and would function like can of spray paint, with the paint missing anything behind a solid object. How do you see it?

Chirs2 wrote:

MAS wrote:
Note: Anybody have any documentation to state whether a Dispel magic can suppress a magical trap?  I never could find anything that definitively covered it. Technically, only a rouge can disarm a magical trap. This one could also be turned off with an appropriate level "turn undead" as well.
Any questions about the encounter?

Josh and I had an email discussion about this, so I figure it is worth sharing.

In general, I believe the intention in PF is that only rogues can disarm magical traps, which is why it says that and does not say anything about magical traps in the description of Dispel Magic.

Thinking creatively, it is a clever idea to use Detect Magic and Dispel Magic.  However, Detect is really only revealing auras and wouldn't necessarily reveal the exact location of the trap.  It wouldn't reveal anything if the trigger on a magical trap was a mechanical plate and not a 'magic eye' for instance.  At best Dispel Magic would only subdue the trap for 1d4 rounds, but that would require a specific target.

Dispel Magic also talks about only being able to dispel on-going effects, not instantaneous ones, which is what counter-spell is for and that wouldn't apply to a trap either.

I can see the debate for both sides, but again I would tend to side with the intent being for only rogues to have that special, niche, ability.


GM - can you take a look at post N*21?

I was hoping to get some clarification on the LOS and LOE (line of effect) issue I mentioned, just to make sure we are on a similar page regarding spell effects.  In that example, a fireball would behave differently, because it doesn't explode until it reaches its target square, so the explosion would happen past the pillars.  I think a cone in particular has its point of origin at the caster and would function like can of spray paint, with the paint missing anything behind a solid object.  How do you see it?

I agree with your interpretation with magical traps - thats what I concluded as well. Only a rouge can disarm them.

LOS / LOE for the fireball. The shape was taken directly from the PRD. Is your statement that the damage zone should have been affected by the pillars/walls?

Correct - I messed that one up. Spell descriptions say things like "every creature within this area" - but I didnt look at the information about AOE under the "magic" section.

We will be more carefull with AOE in the future.

ok, fine... so where are we going from here?

whit10 wrote:ok, fine... so where are we going from here?

Nowhere, until we are done being here, where we just arrived not long ago. Please give folks a chance to chime in and respond to what Ive posted.

I may not be ready to start the next encounter this week. If you've got a big gaping hole in your life where gaming needs to be - you can use it to finish your WOD material

The debriefing rolls over Ignis like a steaming fog, as when red-hot lava cascades into the ocean. The ifrit sorcerer is reminded of his cousin's estate on the quasi plane of elemental mist. "I really mussst get out to visssit old Blaze one of thessse daysss," he murmurs to himself.

The ancient wyrm reminds him of a nanny he had growing up in the Brass City. He learned at an early age that a respectful tone and humble demeanor counts when dealing with the serpent-folk.

"Excussse me, Commander sssir, but from whence did thessse abominable lichesss come from? Do they have a home plane or perhapsss a planet-sssized phylactery where their power originatesss? If ssso, then Ignisss volunteersss to accompany the ssstrike forcssse to neutralize more of thessse vile lichesss!"

MAS wrote:

whit10 wrote:ok, fine... so where are we going from here?

Nowhere, until we are done being here  

spoken like a true zen-gamemaster   

MAS wrote: I may not be ready to start the next encounter this week. If you've got a big gaping hole in your life where gaming needs to be - you can use it to finish your WOD material

 

Robyo wrote:The debriefing rolls over Ignis like a steaming fog, as when red-hot lava cascades into the ocean. The ifrit sorcerer is reminded of his cousin's estate on the quasi plane of elemental mist. "I really mussst get out to visssit old Blaze one of thessse daysss," he murmurs to himself.

The ancient wyrm reminds him of a nanny he had growing up in the Brass City. He learned at an early age that a respectful tone and humble demeanor counts when dealing with the serpent-folk.

"Excussse me, Commander sssir, but from whence did thessse abominable lichesss come from? Do they have a home plane or perhapsss a planet-sssized phylactery where their power originatesss? If ssso, then Ignisss volunteersss to accompany the ssstrike forcssse to neutralize more of thessse vile lichesss!"

"An excellent question, Lord Igniss. The world known as "Vex" is named for the Uber-Lich who rules it, and is a stronghold of the undead. As you may be aware, the corruption of the Machine of Throne was accomplished by one of Vex's agents, touching off a wave of necromantic rot that nearly consumed the Thousand Worlds. Vex, and his servants, survived the cataclysmic chain reaction that wrecked hundreds of worlds when the Machine was destroyed, by storing their essence in containers known as "phylactery". These devices were scattered in hidden places far from the worlds that had been infected. They consolidated after their recovery, and conquered the world we now refer to as "Vex."

"A more in depth briefing on Vexian capabilities and history will be delivered to you all shortly"

(I am working on the missing sections of the C1KW setting history covering "The Blight" right now. This fills in some blanks about Vex, and will accompany another piece that puts this into current context.)

MAS wrote:
I agree with your interpretation with magical traps - thats what I concluded as well. Only a rouge can disarm them.  
LOS / LOE  for the fireball. The shape was taken directly from the PRD. Is your statement that the damage zone should have been affected by the pillars/walls?
Correct - I messed that one up. Spell descriptions say things like "every creature within this area" - but I didnt look at the information about AOE under the "magic" section.
We will be more carefull with AOE in the future.

Good to know about traps.

As I read the LoE rules, it seems that applies to everything EXCEPT a cloud type spell, which does go around barriers and turn corners.

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin).


above that it states

Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can't see.

also, by this logic

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.

one creature cannot provide a broken LoE the way a solid barrier does, in other words, even if Rasso hides behind a Huge Griz, it wouldn't save him from a cone of cold, since Griz isn't solid as there are holes between his limbs and in between his ears.  

But I think Griz would block LoS from a ranged attack or a ray.  What do you think about that?

Griz's tummy rumbles again, disturbing his zen. The sign around his neck now says "Do not fee," and he is licking his balls. He stops, realizing again that everyone is staring. The monkey is beginning to look a bit tasty, but Grizzle sits up and attempts to pay attention.

Here we go. Everything I have turned up on google search says that creatures do not block LOS or LOE.

However, a creature (or allied character) can offer cover against ranged attacks:

Cover
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from any corner of your square to the target's square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

Low Obstacles and Cover: A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he's closer to the obstacle than his target.

Cover and Attacks of Opportunity: You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.

Cover and Reflex Saves: Cover grants you a +2 bonus on Reflex saves against attacks that originate or burst out from a point on the other side of the cover from you. Note that spread effects can extend around corners and thus negate this cover bonus.

Cover and Stealth Checks: You can use cover to make a Stealth check. Without cover, you usually need concealment (see below) to make a Stealth check.

Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.

Big Creatures and Cover: Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.

Partial Cover: If a creature has cover, but more than half the creature is visible, its cover bonus is reduced to a +2 to AC and a +1 bonus on Reflex saving throws. This partial cover is subject to the GM's discretion.