OoG Discussion

Whitey wrote:So, I’m allowed +2  to one ability or +1 to two abilities. Do I take 1 feat or 2?

Looks like Leirthal isn't the only one with an unquenchable thirst for power.

oh, I WISH it were two feats. lol.... Drusus could use two feats.

Cyclone only wants to serve Kord’s will as his hand and mercy in battle. If Kord, in all his thundery wisdom, saw fit to grant two feats, who would Cycline be to doubt such a blessing?

I was out of cell service range all day yesterday and will also be out all day today until tomorrow late afternoon once I go back into the mountains for work. I'll try to do my level up and give any input in the meantime, but I've got some errand to run before I leave today. Probably unimpactful, but just an fyi.

Also. For leveling up, are we taking the standard avg + CON?

Josef909 wrote:Also. For leveling up, are we taking the standard avg + CON?

Correct.

agreed! solid game so far Rob

and great roleplaying by the party

are there more feats in other books?

Now that I have had time to look at other books, I really wish I had selected one cantrip differently.  I'm wondering whether there is any kind of retraining option for this. By the time Leirthal is 8th level and can select another cantrip, it probably won't matter...

You could consider converting him to cleric. Relearn whatever you want on a long rest. Of course, all that piety and service to the meek and less fortunate might not suit Leirthal’s haughty disposition...but Cycline would be happy to take the elf under his wing....

"Leirthal the Holy," he mused... "I like the sound of it!"

Bru has used his recent experience to figure out how to better prevent his enemies from escaping his range, and moving towards or attacking those he chooses to protect.

Josef909 wrote:Bru has used his recent experience to figure out how to better prevent his enemies from escaping his range, and moving towards or attacking those he chooses to protect.

nice choice for our front line!

I was tempted to take Dungeon Delver because the bonuses are so good vs traps, but it just seemed too situational. I ended up adding +2 to Dex as that helps with 3 skills, combat (AC, hit, damage, initiative), saves, and thieves tools (locks, traps). That all seemed the best bang for my buck.

Cyclone is going to take the Healer feat. It amounts to one extra Cure Wounds per party member per short rest. And no spell slots expended! Will update character sheet in the next day or so.

Yep, that seems like an easy choice for Nok. All around benefit in and out of combat.

Whitey wrote:Cyclone is going to take the Healer feat. It amounts to one extra Cure Wounds per party member per short rest. And no spell slots expended! Will update character sheet in the next day or so.

Nok will be sure to take more damage next time!

"waste Nok, want Nok" as goblin momma used to say. Nok never really understood that one.....

After yer 1d6+8 of HP recovery, yer on yer own. Next time I open my kit it’s to bring ya back to 1HP from 0.

Drusus took Magic Initiate as a new feat... more spells are always good

How do staff charges work in 5e? What is the recharge value in parentheses?

~This staff of bone channels the madness of the elder gods of chaos. Dragonfang Bolt: Targeted creature WIS save DC 14 or suffer 1d10+4 Poison damage and all creatures adjacent to target take 3 Poison damage. Electric Reflux (Recharge: 4-6): Ray, Targeted Creature DEX save DC 14 or take 4d6 Lightning damage. Fiery Croak (Recharge: 6): Cone 30', Targeted creatures CON save DC 14 or take 4d10 Fire and Force damage on a failed save, or 1/2 damage on a successful one. Requires Attunement.

navyik wrote:How do staff charges work in 5e?  What is the recharge value in parentheses?

~This staff of bone channels the madness of the elder gods of chaos. Dragonfang Bolt: Targeted creature WIS save DC 14 or suffer 1d10+4 Poison damage and all creatures adjacent to target take 3 Poison damage. Electric Reflux (Recharge: 4-6): Ray, Targeted Creature DEX save DC 14 or take 4d6 Lightning damage. Fiery Croak (Recharge: 6): Cone 30', Targeted creatures CON save DC 14 or take 4d10 Fire and Force damage on a failed save, or 1/2 damage on a successful one. Requires Attunement.

Requires the user to be attuned. Once a power is used, roll a 1d6 (at end of user's turn) for a recharge. Electric Reflux recharges on a 4,5,6. Fiery Croak recharges on  a 6. Dragonfang Bolt doesn't require a recharge. The staff is potentially cursed, and possibly intelligent. Insanity points accrue.

If a power fails to recharge, do you roll on each subsequent turn until it does recharge?

Leirthal is lawful and is put off by the chaos in the staffs magic.  He is also ambitious and selfish and is tempted by it's power.  He will likely gradually acclimate himself to the notion that he is strong enough to handle the staff's chaos in order to harness it's chaos for "good" purposes. (He also believes he is good even though he is "neutral."

navyik wrote:If a power fails to recharge, do you roll on each subsequent turn until it does recharge?

Yes.

did you guys see this?

https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/723UA_EberronRaces7232018.pdf

some new racial options, including my favorite WARFORGED!

it's not official, but is for playtesting and feedback

subclasses

https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-RevisedSubclasses.pdf

Is that part of the Ravnica setting they're coming out with? I know their next campaign book details 23 levels of Undermountain below Waterdeep, but the next setting book is something completely different.

that is Eberron world

I only know it from the online DDO MMORPG that I played about 10 yrs ago. It was set in Eberron, though most of the races are new to me and weren't in that game, just the WF

so, lemme get this straight.... they redid the game and didn't bother to come up with a new world?

Waterdeep, Eberron? Haven't those been done to death?

they redid the rules and mechanics of the game, it's still D&D

And RE: Waterdeep, I think theyve got 2 books coming. One details the legendary megadungeon underneath the Yawning Portal tavern, and the other is a City-based campaign, which is a new concept I think.

nah, city campaigns are old and plentiful.

Apparently, they only had good ideas for the mechanics, not for a new world (or other ideas)

I'll concede your point, Josh, but that might be intentional. WotC did do a major overhaul to the mechanics, making the game much easier to learn and a lot more elegant mechanically.

I think they realized that the biggest market they can tap is the "new player". The old guard can be counted on to buy the new books already, but given the recent cultural reintroduction of dnd there are swaths of young people who aren't scared to be called nerds. It's almost a badge of honor now.

Given that, there are a ton of potential new customers who aren't jaded by decades of cliches and overused tropes. Tropes are fun. They became them for a reason. And nothing is cliche to a new player because it's all new and exciting to them.

Moreover, Forgotten Realms is a comfortable generic fantasy world that many of the new players have seen in one form or another. Probably a lot easier for someone to pretend they're in the world ofTolkien, or WoW, or GoT, etc. than in some new setting where everything is unknown and a less imaginative player might struggle to paint those pictures in their mind.

Magic is the bread and butter for WotC, but I think theyve done extremely well in rolling out 5th edition.

WotC is indeed putting out two setting books this year. Eberron is olde, but a fan favorite. Ravnica is a setting from Magic: The Gathering, now converted to D&D. And Gygax probably turned over in his grave at the news..


*Hey guys, been rather busy lately working on a music project. Should have time tonight to update the game. Great job on the role-playing!

fair points Rob and Joe.

The idea that nerds are somehow "cool" now is one of the funniest things I can think of

new topic!

Josh, Matt, Alan and Rob have heard this before, but I am keen for new ideas with 5e, especially from Joe, Mike and Rob who have played with it more than me.


I have played a lot of MMOs over the last decade and I always favor the Tank archetype.  My brother Jon is a master healer and I protect him.

definition: MMO Tank is a defensive build designed primarily to force enemies to attack them (Taunt) and mitigate that damage.  (I know Josh thinks this is a poor name given a tank's offensive meaning in the real world, moving on).  Dealing damage is not the point, it's taking damage and fire away from allies


I tried to build an MMO tank in PF, but the Taunt ability was sorely lacking.  The best I found was a Paladin spell "Knight's challenge" but that was limited by their low spells\day.  I have been browsing 5e and theory crafting MMO tank builds.


Barbarian\Fighter multi class

Bear totem for Resistance to all damage during rage = half damage is great for a tank

Battle master
Goading strike is the Taunt ability (not a true taunt that compels the attacker) that imposes Disadvantage if they don't attack you
Parry - reduce more damage if needed, like a big crit or something
Maneuvering attack - move your ally out of harm's way or next to you, as needed
Protection fighting style -  impose disadvantage on enemies attacking adjacent ally (effectively another Taunt that is free if ally is within 5ft)

Shield Master Feat - shield AC bonus helps with Dex saves vs spells and such, push enemies away from allies

race - either Human for the extra feat or Dragonborn for the elemental DR or Hill Dwarf for CON and toughness feat

Heavy Armor Master Feat - depending on stats, could reduce dmg further from non-magical if wearing armor.  I would have to crunch out if armor or Barb unarmored is better once I knew stats.  I think high Dex and Con are going to be better than armor, but not 100%

The build needs to be barb3\fight1 to really get started with Protection (Taunt) and Bear rage.  It doesn't fully develop until brb3\fgt3 though for BM to kick in.


Another variation that is more offensive would be to forgo the shield and take Polearm Master and Sentinel.  You get +5ft reach range, hit them on the way in, stop their movement,  hit them on the way out and counter attack if they don't attack you.  You are not as Tanky, but you could control enemy movement better to keep them away from the backlines.  This could be pure Barb or you could go into fighter for the armor, maybe even go Champion for the extra crits or BM


Any other Tank thoughts or experience?

Awesome thought exercise. Bru is really my first shot ever at a tanky type character. I used the barbarian resistance while raging to effectively double his HP through resistance, and when not raging, his shield will mitigate almost all nonmagical damage. The sentinel feat I chose does help to force the DM to choose targets, movement, and attack strategy wisely.

That said, the difference between dnd and an MMO in respect to a 'tank' is the human element. In video games everything must be scripted beforehand, meaning whatever aggro or target selection is nothing more than an algorithm. If you can figure out how it works, you can reliably cause AI to behave in a mostly predictable manner.

In dnd, there is none of that. A DM can choose to slog it out with the bag-o-HP, or have their enemies act more intelligently and attack the squishies in the back.

None of that is to say what a great dnd tank might be, but the effectiveness between the systems for the tank role in combat is glaringly different. I'm positive there are tons of threads to read concerning this sort of theorycrafting, so maybe I'll get my nose dirty and learn some more. On the other hand, I'm kind of enjoying learning the role as I go and doing what I think is fun rather than optimal.

Thanks for the feedback and thoughts!

sorry that I didn't clarify, but 99% of our MMO focus is in PvP, not PvE

that's why the Taunt is SO important, it compels them to attack the tank for 5 seconds or whatever.  That's why I want the Protection and BM abilities in 5e to punish the DM for not attacking the tank.

Jon played a LOT more than me, but he was world-ranked in PvP for both World of Warcraft and Guild Wars 2. He is ranked in League of Legends and live streams a channel currently.

and seeing Bru's damage reduction rage in action is actually what got me thinking about all this

Aha, that changes things a bit.

Breaking it down, I'd say the most important considerations for making a dnd tank would be large HP pool (CON stat) and as many resistances as you can manage (items and character mechanics), enemy target limitations, enemy movement limitations, and buffs to allies. I'd even rank them in that order.

I've never played a paladin or fighter, but I know there are protective/defensive subclasses to each that might be awesome to multiclass dip into. The hardest part would be figuring out how to jigsaw those pieces together while not limiting the effective traits of the primary class, of course. I'm not well versed in multiclassing (dont allow it in my game), so I'd have to read and emulate the builds of others to figure out how to maximize those choices.

Simplifying it as a barbarian only, I went after the given HP and loaded up on resistances. My choice of feat makes me really sticky, so hopefully once I engage with a target they're stuck with me or pay the price and inflate my personal action economy with bonus attacks. We will see how it works in practice, but I think the choice addresses both target selection as well as mobility. Shield master was also a consideration, but I ruled that I would get more use from sentinel. Polearm master is also a really good one for the typical frontline brute if terrain is favorable. I seem to remember hearing that there are very few 'taunt' abilities per se, but that can effectively be accomplished by making yourself too valuable a target to ignore either by virtue of a feat or by offering something like advantage to an enemy attack (i.e. barbarians reckless attack) or one of the fighter/pally abilities you mentioned.

All in all, choosing to make a character like this means you will almost never do an impressive amount of damage, but that's to be left to others.

Bru definitely seems like a more balanced front-line warrior. I can see Sentinel giving you the most bang for your buck, nice choice. It's cool that he can both tank and be offensive as it suits you. I suspect that a more balanced approach is more fun for the long term as you can change it up as you go.

Just curious, why don't you allow multiclassing in your games?

I read that WotC doesn't allow it for playtesting of the new classes, but there seems to be a lot of multiclass builds on the forums. Sorcadin comes to mind as a heavy crunch using Sorc spell slots to power Smite, for example.

Barb\Champion so you can attack with advantage and expanded crit range


@Rob - do you allow multiclasses?

I decided to not allow it for 2 reasons.

Reason the first is that I'm still a relatively new DM, having only run 3 or 4 sessions ever before launching into the SKT campaign last year. I wanted to make sure I had a clear and consistent grasp of the basic rules, and keeping the added technicalities of multiclassing out of my head was preferrable.

Reason the second is that one of my players is a true noobie who decided to play a druid, one of the more complicated classes to play. He has enough of a problem understanding how his class works (although he is getting much better), so I find I have to really understand the ins and outs of his class to make sure he can actually do what he thinks he can do. An added burden onto the DM and fellow party members to be sure, so I need to keep it as simple as possible for him.

fair enough, just curious


That is one thing that I noticed about 5e - it has both simple and complex classes. Both of which are effective and useful in the game but they can appeal to different playstyles. While they can be used as "trainer" classes for new players, I think they can also appeal to someone that just wants less book keeping.

Within Fighter, Battlemaster has a lot of resource management with Superiority Dice and tactical decisions with their maneuvers. Champion is a very straight forward class with no resource mgt and all their features just happen every round. Both are effective in combat.

Warlock and Wizard are similar. Wizards have to manage which spells they choose every day from their book. They also have arcane recovery. Warlocks have fewer choices (spells are locked) but they recover more at a short rest.

Rogues have no resources to manage, but they do have the tactical decision of how to use the Cunning Action each round and more tactical play so they don't end up dead. Barbs have Rage mgt, etc etc.

Or you can take a simple class, like Champion, but add Sentinel and PaM to make a tactically complex playstyle.

Keeping them all balanced is truly impressive from a design standpoint.

Have you guys been keeping up on the Pathfinder 2 playtest stuff?

No. Have you?

I almost always multiclass. The exception is primary spell casters; especially arcane.
I like that 5e grants multiclassed Spellcasters flexible use of spell slots. I think it would have been good to offer choices as to the acquisition of proficiencies. What good is it to multiclass two classes that already have the same weapon and armour proficiencies? How about if I can choose whether to gain martial weapons and heavy armour or a fortitude save. (Gaining both saves might be OP). Maybe I want to add cleric to wizard as Leirthal becomes more socially acclimated but I don't want him to use armour, flails, and shields. He already knows bows and swords because he is an elf. Seems like I always have to waste some of the benefits.

Chris wrote:No.  Have you?

Yep. Alchemist as core. Reminds me a lot of 5e (and 4e and Starfinder)..
http://paizo.com/pathfinderplaytest

Robyo wrote:

Chris wrote:No.  Have you?

Yep. Alchemist as core. Reminds me a lot of 5e (and 4e and Starfinder)..
http://paizo.com/pathfinderplaytest

Cool, I will check it out, thanks!

character stats are an interesting twist on a stat buy system. I kinda like it.

@Josh - check it out, easy to get very high stats
18,16,14
or
18,16,12,12

seems like PF2 is still very feat focused, but you defnitely get fewer of them now. I like that racial abilities are now racial feats and you keep getting those too as you advance in your race

action economy looks interesting as you get 3 actions per turn! I haven't checked the "cost" of different actions yet

I'll check it out at some point, figured they'd do this... the nerd arms race must go on!!

I'll confess that I just don't have a lot of time for number crunching right now...

PF gets a bad rep for Feats for some reason. Sure, you could have a ton as a human fighter, but otherwise, five or six by 15th level. Not really that many, given that the game was only written to go to 20th level (unless you brought in the Mythic rules, which even I will admit were broken)

Rob, what is your policy on abilities gained from leveling up without resting? Is Leirthal able to use new spell slot yet? Is he able to use the new cantrip he knows? Does he have the additional hit points he gained? He also gained a spell-like ability through a feat. Can he use that?

navyik wrote:Rob, what is your policy on abilities gained from leveling up without resting?  Is Leirthal able to use new spell slot yet?  Is he able to use the new cantrip he knows?  Does he have the additional hit points he gained?  He also gained a spell-like ability through a feat.  Can he use that?

Yeah your characters could use a long rest. Spell slots remain the same as earlier, until character completes a long rest. New cantrip: yes. Additional HP: yes. However, if anyone's HP is depleted, it remains so, until a long rest (or use unspent HD during a short rest, or magical healing). Newt Feat: yes.

@Mike and Mike - nice AoE attacks!