character talk

we can move out of the pf2e room

@Josh - I deleted your post to remove your email from this public forum.

MAS wrote:@Josh - I deleted your post to remove your email from this public forum.

good call, it does get scraped by bots and infiltrated from time to time

Chris wrote:

MAS wrote:@Josh - I deleted your post to remove your email from this public forum.

good call, it does get scraped by bots and infiltrated from time to time

For sure! if anyone is gonna sign Josh up for a bunch of weird emails, it'll be his friends!

thanks, I should have known better

So it looks like we’re supposed to play through the character generation.

@Matt - so do you want us to roll randomly for all the character background stuff?

I see the stats, which seem straightforward, but I am more asking about this sutff:

All characters begin at the age of majority, typically 18. Having generated characteristic scores
and background skills, the character should begin serving terms in his or her chosen career. Each 4-
year term spent in a career gives the character more experience in the universe, generally in the form
of skills. Generate the results of each term before proceeding to the next. At the end of a period of
service, characters roll for benefits gained upon "mustering out"

The player or
Referee can simply choose the homeworld of the character or it can be determined randomly by
rolling on the charts on p.167-172.
Once the homeworld of the character is determined, the charts on p.172-176 will tell you
which skills the character will have at the beginning of character generation.

The Youth Events charts are on p.186-189.

teenage events

college events

careers

etc

That's the standard character gen system in the core book guys, so yes, roll away and see what happens! One can pick homeworld or roll it, as chosen.

Highly, highly recommend a full look at the rules & setting before focusing on chargen.

Reminder that I'd like to do the "actual/final" chargen together as a party in session zero.

I've got a trip to NC oct 28-Nov10ish. Would like to get us together for a few hours online and launch this after I get back. Can we lean into putting a date/time on the board?

MAS wrote:That's the standard character gen system in the core book guys, so yes, roll away and see what happens! One can pick homeworld or roll it, as chosen.

Highly, highly recommend a full look at the rules & setting before focusing on chargen.

Reminder that I'd like to do the "actual/final" chargen together as a party in session zero.

I've got a trip to NC oct 28-Nov10ish. Would like to get us together for a few hours online and launch this after I get back. Can we lean into putting a date/time on the board?

Proposed date for session zero before or after your trip?  that wasn't clear to me


Honestly, I really don't have the time to read a 700 pg setting\rule book.  I just want to play a game with my friends, not spend a month learning a new system\setting.  


I have read the basic rules for 2d6 play.  roll 2d6 (instead of d20) add modifiers, beat an 8 or whatever # the GM tells me.  Combat rounds are 6 seconds.  1 significant action (Action) and 1 Bonus Action (also a move) or 3 Bonus Actions.  This is supposed to be rules light and more RP focused, right?


I did read the basic setting - humans went through a wormhole, it collapsed, human colonies now cut off in frontier space.  Lots of planets, each run shit their own way, some friendly, some not.  Some humans are genetically modified and then there are a bunch of sentient animals (seems hokey but whatever).  


Seriously, most of the time everyone can barely keep the basic plot in their minds of "go there, do that".  If you want to do a session zero for character creation, then let's do it and get started.  I am ready to learn more of the rules and explore the setting as we go!

I’ve gotten through the Altrants and uplifts. I will look into homework’s next. To Chris’s points, I am skimming intermittently and the mechanic seems straightforward enough that I trust Matt to referee any complications appropriately.

I see that the bad characteristic rolls can be applied where bonuses improve them. . Does homeworld give any bonuses? (I will find out).

Yeah the session zero was mentioned a few times. This was the first time I brought up scheduling it. I'm not rushing to start the game, then stopping it for another 2 weeks - Which is why you have plenty of time to read the book - I can't start the game till mid NOV no matter how much you guys wanna rush it.

No one is expecting the hyperbole laden "memorizing 700 pages" which we all know isn't reality, but I do expect players to have fully read the book and arrive ready to play, so that hand-holding is kept to minimum. This isn't an unreasonable request, its basic participatory minimal effort for any RPG. If you folks dont feel that's enough time to read a game book and be ready to play, we'll do something else.

Im offering Clement Sector starting in mid November when I get back from my next trip. Id love to play with you guys! Let me know your plans so I can prep or not.

@Alan - correct, you can balance stats a bit along the way.

Seriously, most of the time everyone can barely keep the basic plot in their minds of "go there, do that".

There is some honesty here, its true.

Which makes me hesitant to run this at all, because what I want to run is an immersive game with involved players who are interested in role-playing and will engage in the story, develop their own goals and plans, etc. If no one else wants to invest effort into doing that, I'm not going to try and force it. We are just looking for different things in our games.

MAS wrote:

Seriously, most of the time everyone can barely keep the basic plot in their minds of "go there, do that".

There is some honesty here, its true.

Which makes me hesitant to run this at all, because what I want to run is an immersive game with involved players who are interested in role-playing and will engage in the story, develop their own goals and plans, etc. If no one else wants to invest effort into doing that, I'm not going to try and force it. We are just looking for different things in our games.

I appreciate that you stepped up and offered to run a game.  I remain interested in the Hostile\Clement sci-fi setting.  I am not sure the forum in its current state is the place for a very detailed story-driven adventure.  


I was chatting with Josh the other day about more of a "short story series".  It isn't anything game\genre specific, but we were just sharing our frustrations that we can't seem to hold anything together for more than about 6 months.  The current pace of the forum means that is like 2 levels worth of progress in a game.

For example, with the recent PF2e game, there was a lot of FLUFF encounters to meet the xp factor and would probably work well in a live-action table top setting.  It just dragged the story elements out to the point where remembering clues and plot points that were revealed back in July were lost.  

We discussed the idea of cutting the extra filler stuff out but essentially doubling the xp rewards for major fights or narrative aspects.  It could, in theory, turn the long chapter style of RPGs into more a "short story" that moves along quickly, both in plot and advancement.

We literally started PF2e back in May.  We only made 1.5 levels and half an adventure in 5 months, mostly due to my IRL issues that are on-going.  

In a way, it reminds me of Matt's "1000 worlds" idea from years ago, that was probably a decade ahead of its time

If I recall, we had a party and a quest-giver (a gold dragon that my wizard lipped off to and should have been eaten by).  Each adventure was a self-contained mission of a handful of encounters\social\exploration.  

I could see that style working with Hostile\Clement or fantasy or spy-genre or really anything.  

Maybe the forum is a round peg and we keep trying to force the square peg of live-action tabletop into it?

A lot of great feedback/ideas here! Gimme a spell to lay out my response, but we are on the same page on many points. and thanks for the nod on 1k worlds!

I would have to agree with what Chris wrote. I was thinking about PF2 and some of the encounters (not to beat a dead horse) and the "round peg in a square hole" comment is apt. Many of the encounters in PF2 (or D&D for that matter) work far better around a table when you have to think on the fly instead of getting hours, a day or several days, to make a response or make an appropriate skill check (more the former than the latter).

I tried doing much the same thing the last time I ran 5E and it just didn't work out the way I wanted.

If I remember correctly, we did some kind of weird mash-up game years ago where I played a Klingon scientist. That was a contained story that allowed us to interract, fight, etc., without things getting out of control. I think this was a Chris campaign of some type but it was quite a while ago.

All that said, we are spit-balling and I just wanted to chime in. Still trying to read through the core book (just decided to ignore the very strange game history for the moment) and it will be this weekend before I probably get any kind of stats or a character made up

All of the life events rolls look fun. Randomized number crunch. Also explains why Amos Burton knew how to walk in pumps…

"All of the life events rolls look fun. Randomized number crunch. Also explains why Amos Burton knew how to walk in pumps…" ROFL, love it!


Agree that the idea of the episodes/missions/shorter adventures could be very effective, that and level jumping is something I've suggested for years. All solid notes on pacing and good mechanical fixes if you are tied down to XPs, but a great example of what Im talking about when I advise slow down and read the book, There are fundamental design and intent differences here. You guys are looking at this as DnD instead of taking it for what it is. For example:

You guys haven't picked up on pick up on Clement/traveller not having levels or XPs yet? its a completely different mindset to the gameplay than DnD, there is no advancement except what you make happen in play, you don't accrue experience points and buff up with new powers or skills. So this cyclic demand to get into new fights/encounters for XPs/advancement doesn't exist. You don't have to "speed up to get to the action" because all the game play is the action, instead of only select gameplay having advancement value. Your gameplay advances you towards your goals, not the mechanics. ITS A STRANGE NEW WORLD, lol!

Clement aside:

Man I really want to play an actual Role-playing game again!

I enjoyed the PF2 combats (becuase we were playing a smooth running game, together!) and I think modules are a good solution to throwing up easy games of DND/PF. Easy for the GM. Its great for cut and paste narratives introducing a pre-built combat encounter, but does anyone really care what was going in that story? Noope. No investment for any of us, because its on rails and really just about the fights and harvesting xps. Very little role-play involved. I think being in a rush to get the next fight and harvest xps really degrades role play and reduces things to a tactical board game. Which is ok (ill take whatever fight I get for the exercise and spend time with bros) but why not just play a specifically tactical game instead?

I believe the forum lends itself just fine to detailed storytelling/gameplay. We've done some great storytelling here. It isn't the play by post format holding us back, its our own lack of effort. Myself included, I know I really let my situations get away from me and dropped the ball at several points. Paying attention, reading the rules, time management  - that's all a choice that adults make with anything they do.  

Part of the thing that burns out GMs is that their role is always on, which is why I've suggested scheduled posting periods. The other thing is low effort.

We get things done slowly because players slow things down by not being familiar with rules or not looking them up themselves. #1 time waster right here. The expectation that the GM does all the work is bunk. The players have equal responsibilities to the game as the GM does. The GM runs the game but isn't going to play it for you, too.

Having to translate and clarify posts because they weren't done in the format directed by the GM is another big time waster.

We've been playing these games for 30+ years, you know what the GM needs 99% of the time, post it proactively.

Maybe if we did not lose so much time to this sort of easily preventable nonsense, we'd have time for detailed and compelling role playing?

The GM is always crushing it (and then burned out) because they are only one putting much effort out at all. If we can't collectively show whoever is GMing the basic respect of learning the rules and playing the game in the way they need to run it in this format, maybe we need to find something else to do.

In short, we'd have less friction and more quality play if players would put out a legit effort to participate. That means learning the rules and setting of the game you agree to play (because that's the game), and maybe even listening to the GM when he gives insight into material he has already read. You guys are telling me you are ready to go and don't even understand that the game doesn't use character levels, as proof to my point.

All (interesting) debate aside, this is what I'm offering:

What:
Play by post game of Clement Sector RPG.

Where:
All online. We'll do "session zero" character gen in a thread together vs meeting face to face.

When:
I will link players the rest of the Clement Sector library on November 1st. "Session zero" character and party generation thread opens Nov 15th.

How:
The GM is prepared and ready to play, with a working familiarity of the core book's contents and systems being integrated with relevant selections of the wider catalogue.
Players are prepared and ready to play, with a working familiarity of the core book's contents and systems at minimum.
Posting/Gameplay days will be Monday-Friday.
I'll start with and/or continue running as long as I have ONE player or more, there are some awesome solo mechanics that can be applied to running teams/squads/crews of npcs.
Each player may play up to 2 PCs. We''l round out the crew with NPCs if we are too light on PCs to make a whole crew.

Why:
Space opera is awesome, we're awesome, so we're gonna do some super awesome space opera.
We're 50ish, experienced gamers, and want to play/run/enjoy a game that reflects that.
None of you want to run anything

Hope you guys decide to play, I'm excited at the chance to run this with you all!

Ive been playing around with "Sensor" style mapping for ships, what you guys think? Low res sample kinda sucks, Ill see if i can get a better one up

MAS wrote:Ive been playing around with "Sensor" style mapping for ships, what you guys think? Low res sample kinda sucks, Ill see if i can get a better one up

This is cool.

MAS wrote:
1) You guys haven't picked up on pick up on Clement/traveller not having levels or XPs yet?  You guys are telling me you are ready to go and don't even understand that the game doesn't use character levels, as proof to my point.  

2) Man I really want to play an actual Role-playing game again!

3) but does anyone really care what was going in that story? Noope. No investment for any of us, because its on rails and really just about the fights and harvesting xps.

4) Part of the thing that burns out GMs is that their role is always on, which is why I've suggested scheduled posting periods.

5) The other thing is low effort. Maybe if we did not lose so much time to this sort of easily preventable nonsense, we'd have time for detailed and compelling role playing?

I think this is a really great conversation and I would like to continue it.  I appreciate the thoughtful reply and I cherry-picked some points to highlight in my reply.  Please, consider this only a reply and not an "argument" meant to change anyone's opinion or any kind of "attack".  

By means of comparison, we talk about a concept with juries called "reasonable minds may disagree".  Quickly, this is the idea that a jury of 12 people all see the same things during trial (testimony, evidence, etc) but afterwards they may not agree on a verdict.  This is because of many factors like how much\little they believed a specific witness, how much weight they give a piece of evidence, life experiences, etc etc etc


I see the same issues that you do.  I think you nailed them.

I don't agree with the conclusions you have reach, though I understand why you would reach them.

(see above quotes to reference replies)

1)  Ok, that took you 5 seconds to tell us instead of reading a 700pg book.  That's not a "low effort" player issue, imo.  I think that goes to the "we are looking for different things in our game" issue (I will call this Chris' topic A to separate from Matt's numerical topics).   I don't care if a game has levels or not.  I don't care if it uses d20 or 2d6 or is diceless.  I just want to play with my friends.  I like exploring a game (system and setting) at the same time. (A)  

2) What's stopping you?  There was some seriously great RP during the last D&D adventure with Mike, Alan and Josh in the Underdark.  All 3 had distinct characters that were memorable.  Same for Pirates.  in the recent PF2e game, I was holding everyone's hand on the rules (so you didn't waste time or worry on that), the adventure was scripted....  there was nothing to concentrate on except RP and combat.  That should have lead to better RP, not worse.  

3) there was actually a LOT more to do and different paths the party could have taken.  Paizo writes some of the best adventures I have ever seen.  Every character in Plaguestone had a background, desires, motivations.... nobody explored them.  There is a path that the party could have ended up 'outlaws' by refusing the dopey town magistrate.  the players chose the most vanilla path, which goes back to (2) and (A).

4) agree and agree

5) I kinda addressed this in (2) but I see the opposite effect.  If I am spending my time trying to figure out how to map a course and supplies.... I am not RPing.  I am playing a mini-game, as you called it, that probably really doesn't interest me.  I would rather RP and say, "jumping through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy!  without precise calculations from the NAVA computer...."  make 1 astrogation roll and get on with it.  
I suspect that is an (A) issue as well.  


(B) I miss having Mike play.  I miss his company and his great roleplaying.  We lost Mike due to switching to PF2e which is as close to 5e as you can get.  

(A) I play these games to play with my friends.  I don't care about what system of rules we use.  But it is apparent that other people do.  Mike quit when we switched.  Josh has had some resistance to switching in the past.  

just to say it....  I would rather play broken ass 5e and play with Mike and everyone, then try to get a better set of rules and lose people.  


(C) roleplaying games in general - I really like the way PF2e broke down (xp rewards) the 3 pillars of exploration, social and combat.  All 3 got equal rewards.  All 3 had equal opportunities, whether the party utilized them or not.   I like all 3 fairly equally (A).  Other people may weight them differently.  I suspect Josh likes tactical combat the most, then exploration and social the least.  I separate the pillars from roleplaying though.  You can do all 3 "in character" or in lazy mode.


Matt - I love the way you have organized your "offer" of what you are willing and able to run with specific timelines for play.  


My suggestion - before we decide on anything, I would ask that Josh reaches out to Mike.  Please see if there is any chance he would return to gaming and if so, under what conditions?  (5e only, player only, gaming only M-F, etc).

Thanks for the in depth reply, here is back at ya in the same spirit:

1) It would have taken you the same to read it. Its not the GMs job to train you or teach you you the game, and  I didn't offer clement sector school or training.

All RPGs are not DnD. The agenda here seems to ignore what the game is organically designed for in favor of paving your DnD version over it. Most of your complaints are "this ain't DnD enough". So you just wanna play reskinned DnD, stick with that, becuase that not what I'm offering or what traveller is. Id say learn Starfinder, but you'd have to read a book for that too. fetch me a fainting couch!  

1.1  1 am baffled by the unwillingness to simply hangout together for a few weeks and learn a game. You know, spend time together like you said your priority is? Really impatient and definitely cools the "just wanna hang with my friends" vibe. What's the rush man? Why not setup a campaign world we can use for a long time because we set it up right?

1.2 This 700 page book complaint is dishonestly framed IMO. We are all experienced enough gamers and competent adults that we can identify the meat and skip stuff that you is know is referenceable (tables, etc like spells in the PHB - You read the PHB but you don't read every single inch of it at once unless you wanna get freaky). If you really want, I'll give you a list of the essentials sections to hit and what you can skip. Your talking maybe max 2-4 hours reading spread of the course of a month if you dawdle, I read it one hour or so first pass. You could have probably already knocked out a good portion of it this week just over coffee/in spare time that'd you'd use for gaming anyway? But if its an effort you simply don't want to make, I cant and dont want to make you. You either want to learn and play a new game or you don't.

2) LOL! Nothing stopping ME at all, thats Hilarious! I consistently go above and beyond in my role playing, character design, and attention to detail in post formatting for readability and rules reference. I make up languages for crying out loud. Oh yeah here is a novel one - I actually read the rule sets we play. I bother to look things up before stalling the game with easily answerable questions, read back up the posts to find stuff, you name it. No one puts more effort into their play posts than I do, arguably.

2.2 Glad you guys had fun in the underdark!  

3) I admittedly lost portions of the story with my absence and was relying on the others to keep us on that track. But the point is, I'm never going to feel particularly engaged by cut and paste role playing.

(A) I play these games to play with my friends.  I don't care about what system of rules we use.  But it is apparent that other people do.  Mike quit when we switched.  Josh has had some resistance to switching in the past.

I've done lots of playing systems I don't enjoy much to play with you guys. The presence is the point for me too, but we could also just as easily BS all day in group chat over non gaming stuff. We are choosing to play games here, that's what this space is for. So lets play games or just start a fun group chat.  Bottom line, if the time with friends is worth it to a person, they'll invest the time and energy to participate in things with them.

If you guys only want to play DnD, that's fine, I guess just flat out say that from now on. Its really off-putting to have you guys say "yes I want to play this new game but only if we overwrite it with DnD and you better make it fit my expectations no matter what the game actually is -plus I refuse to learn the game". WTF? Just say no I don't want to learn a new game.

It seems unreasonable and unfair to restrict the whole group due to minority positions. We can only play what Josh and Mike say we can? lame.

Also feel that if Josh and Mike are the ones imposing the restrictions then they should step up and run more games. It's really a "Choosey Beggar" kinda thing IMO.

I don't believe that familiarizing oneself with a game one agrees to play, knowing how RPGs work, is an unreasonable expectation. I don't think taking some time to learn game before starting is unreasonable.

(C) role-playing games in general - I really like the way PF2e broke down (xp rewards) the 3 pillars of exploration, social and combat.  All 3 got equal rewards.  All 3 had equal opportunities, whether the party utilized them or not.   I like all 3 fairly equally (A).  Other people may weight them differently.  I suspect Josh likes tactical combat the most, then exploration and social the least.  I separate the pillars from roleplaying though.  You can do all 3 "in character" or in lazy mode.

Agree that is a really nicely balanced DND/XP focused system. Great for playing DnD style games, this PF2e maybe the best DnD ruleset yet.

[quote]  If I am spending my time trying to figure out how to map a course and supplies.... I am not RPing.  I am playing a mini-game, as you called it, that probably really doesn't interest me.  I would rather RP and say, "jumping through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy!  without precise calculations from the NAVA computer...."  make 1 astrogation roll and get on with it.  [/quote

But that wouldn't be how the system works mechanically, or line up with the tech in the campaign setting. So again, your inserting your DnD onto something under false assumptions. So this is more "id rather just play DnD". I hear ya man, message received.

maybe mini game was too strong of a term (edited from original) - but its certainly player agency to be able to choose your routes. You are telling me its non immersive and too much effort to look at a map and plot a route? How is that different from looking at a battlemap and plotting a move? Star travel is central to the game man.

GM: Matt, your turn, what's your move?
Matt: Moving myself on the map is a minigame and I'm not interested!  Just let me roll some dice!
Everybody grounded in reality: WTF?

---

Organize whatever DnD game you guys like.

If any one or more players wants to dive in to Clement, Im down to run it, but id like an answer soon so I can prep.

Josh should run us some Nations & Cannons! Its 5e based rules in the American Revolution!

@ Alan - thanks for the nod on the sensor map. I figure it makes sense to map an encounter from the crew's perspective vs a top down 3rd person. Definitely something Im developing further.

Ya know what Matt?  That's a hell of an idea!

Any interest from others?  

The only sticking point would be that it's 5E (yuck) but oh well. Matt, do you have a link somewhere to a free PDF for this puppy?  I just don't have the extra cash right now to buy anything


...and just to say it, whoa dudes! It's gaming. There seems to be some hurt feelings going on or some weird argument that doesn't make a ton of sense to me. As someone that has blown a gasket over gaming more than once over the years... let it go, ain't worth it.

I've run several things over the years. I will run 5E (not my personal go-to anymore), PF2 (though it would take me a while to get the hang of it) or something like what Matt mentioned above. For myself, I just enjoy the time with you guys and will normally play whatever as long as it isn't dystopian or just some weird 'bug hunt' with guns. I still love the old d20 SW game (though interest in that seems to have died completely).

Mike is really only interested in 5E. I texted with him today. I think that has more to do with his normal schedule and level of interest but that's a guess. He said he would play if it was that system.

Ooooo. Revolutionary war. . I’m in.

Guys, I’ll play any game and try to learn the rules. I just don’t have bandwidth to DM with the preparation I would want to put into it.

Matt if you still want to Experiment with this Clement Sector, I’m game. I love system variance and complex character generation. maybe others can observe if they’re not able to join in at the moment. Sounds like it has the flexibility that others can slide in later as their curiosity and comfort level grows.

whit10 wrote: do you have a link somewhere to a free PDF for this puppy?

There is a free quickstart pdf on the game's website, Josh. Resources/Downloads.

Matt if you still want to Experiment with this Clement Sector, I’m game.

Hell yeah! Glad to have you on board. When you get a chance, I highly recommend browsing the Travel and Starship Operations section, with attention to Zim drive and Zim points and in-system maneuver. It's about 7 pages out of the 34 page chapter, but it will add a lot of perspective to understand how star travel works.

Just as a teaser, wait till you see the ship and vehicle design systems, i think that you'll really appreciate and enjoy it!

Free starter book


https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/401699/Nations-and-Cannons-Quickstart-Guide



Full book $5 which i will buy and share if we are really going to play it



https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/376570/Nations-and-Cannons-Core-Rules

The more I look through this (grabbed the starter version yesterday) the more I think I would like to run it

Is everyone interested?

Yup

I will try to read more Clement too if I have time and see where we are at in Nov

whit10 wrote:The more I look through this (grabbed the starter version yesterday) the more I think I would like to run it

Is everyone interested?

Yes

navyik wrote:
Yes

I feel like my life just won't be complete unless Alan plays a French-Canadian Trappeur wearing a beaver hat.

Chris wrote:

navyik wrote:
Yes

I feel like my life just won't be complete unless Alan plays a French-Canadian Trappeur wearing a beaver hat.

He’s more late civil war era. Although, Fifi could be a canon instead of a a Gatling gun. Let’s see what everyone else does first. I have some alternatives but we don’t need three Benjamin Martins.

https://online.anyflip.com/eswlz/wkve/mobile/index.html

Here is the full book on anyflip. I am still going to buy a copy, but anyflip is pretty mobile device friendly

And they fixed monk.... might be time to finally play one!

https://www.nationsandcannons.com/blog/fencing-master

new forum created for Josh

https://lodgestgaming.forumotion.com/t500-freedom-chat#33136