A Darkness at the End of the Tunnel

I don't think I can, no (has to be a miss by 4, right?)

Reflex save:

Roll(1d20)+11:
12,+11
Total:23

Is that damage rounded down or up?

Not to be a dick but... is the LT the guy that had the net on him? If so, he ain't sayin' shit until it's his turn

whit10 wrote:
Is that damage rounded down or up?

Not to be a dick but... is the LT the guy that had the net on him?  If so, he ain't sayin' shit until it's his turn

round down

  

Chris wrote:
The LT barks at the recruits, "Pathetic!  You all coulnd't hit the broad side of a Bantha.  Switch to grenades!"

The Lt launches a frag at Daxx's hex DC 10

The LT is the guy that just shot a grenade at you, so it is obviously his turn.  Tarro is the red guy

Tarro


LT

ah, thought so. All good

Daxx's Vitality: 32/66 (gettin' low)

[quote="Chris"]
Daxx 20
Tarro 18, now 13
T'son 13
Mandos 13
Rakhu 6
Sharn 6

Tarro decides to try and free himself from the net.  A wicked looking vibro-blade pops out of a gauntlet sheath and as part of a Full Round Attack action, Tarro slices at the netting with a total of -6 to his attack roll

Roll(1d20)+3:
15,+3
Total:18

damageRoll(2d6)+2:
6,4,+2
Total:12

The net falls apart at his feet in shreds.

Tarro takes his second attack at his would-be entangler, the wookie, now without penalty, Tarro's armor pumps rocket fuel from his jet pack tank down a duraplast hose to his armored gauntlet and ignites it in a cone of super heated jet-fuel.  (it is really a cone, I just can't make a cone with PP)

AoE to hit the hex
Roll(1d20)+4:
11,+4
Total:15

damage
Roll(3d6)+3:
3,3,6,+3
Total:15

Sharn gets a reflex save for half.  




I guess the Lt. is whom got shot down first.


Sharn REFLX save:
3+8=11

If fail, current Vit: 30/48

(If success, half damage of 15 is rounded up or down?)


How does that work exactly, when a character has multiple attacks? Does that equal multiple full-round actions, or just an extra attack (or some other standard) action? Tarro cut the net as a full round action. Then he loaded and fired his weapon. Is loading just a free action, or does he get multiple full-round actions? I am just wondering.

Its just 2 attacks included in full round action. A lot of times you have the option of "attacking" an object. Now I'm curious. Only tarro was shot down. The Lt. Was hit, but only for vitality.

Robyo wrote:
Sharn REFLX save:
3+8=11

If fail, current Vit: 30/48

(If success, half damage of 15 is rounded up or down?)
How does that work exactly, when a character has multiple attacks? Does that equal multiple full-round actions, or just an extra attack (or some other standard) action? Tarro cut the net as a full round action. Then he loaded and fired his weapon. Is loading just a free action, or does he get multiple full-round actions? I am just wondering.

[/quote]

DC 15, sorry, yes reflex failed, round down like with Josh

sure, let me try to explain:

Tarro got 1 full round action, which given his BAB is 2 attacks (not 2 standard actions) at +6\+1 plus modifiers. Cutting the net was just an attack action, not a full round action. He wasn't trying to use escape artist or a strength check DC 25 to bust the net (both of which say they need a full round action). he simply used a knife to cut it, it has 5 hit points. I described the blade springing from the armor, since that was a free action (like an equipment bonus granting Quick Draw)

the rules don't specify, but I would think cutting a net from the inside would be much like being grappled and really only possible with a small (slashing only) weapon or a lightsaber even though it is a medium sized.

he did not load anything, he just fired his armor mounted flame thrower (like a close range, cone shaped blast grenade (targeting the hex), no loading required. Sorry if my description confused you, I was just describing the mechanic of how his jet pack's tank provides fuel for both the jet pack and the flame thrower.

essentially high tech armor in SW is more of a weapons platform than real armor, since it doesn't add to DC and barely adds to DR. it's main advantage is allowing the wearer to have multiple weapons 'at the ready' without the need to draw or activate them. when coupled with a jetpack\rocketpack\boots\etc it also enhances the wearers movement in some fashion.

Rakhu is up, in case it got lost

navyik wrote:Its just 2 attacks included in full round action.  A lot of times you have the option of "attacking" an object.  Now I'm curious.  Only tarro was shot down.  The Lt. Was hit, but only for vitality.

right, see the post to Josh above, sorry if any confusion over icons

Tarro = red
Lt = jetpack
others = white armored heads

and during their recent turn, they all landed at their current locations

Rakhu moves to 1506 and fires once @the Lt.
13+10=23
Dmg 7+1+8=16

"Daxx, get me up there!"
"Sharn, GITTIM!"

navyik wrote:Rakhu moves to 1506 and fires once @the Lt.
13+10=23
Dmg 7+1+8=16

"Daxx, get me up there!"
"Sharn, GITTIM!"

Ok, Lt takes vitality only damage, but he looks like he is getting tired



Sharn is up

Alan.. I think I can do that next turn. Let's hope so

OK, it just confused me when you wrote "full round attack action."


Sharn grapples Tarro:
7+16=23

If that hits, (you said grappling does unarmed strike damage, plus claws & combat gloves bonus) 2d4+7 damage:
3+2+7=12

navyik wrote:Its just 2 attacks included in full round action.  A lot of times you have the option of "attacking" an object.  Now I'm curious.  Only tarro was shot down.  The Lt. Was hit, but only for vitality.

Another reason why I feel 3e action economy is too fiddly. But whatever.

I meant that Lt was the first one you guys shot at. Sorry.

Robyo wrote:OK, it just confused me when you wrote "full round attack action."

Sharn grapples Tarro:
7+16=23

If that hits, (you said grappling does unarmed strike damage, plus claws & combat gloves bonus) 2d4+7 damage:
3+2+7=12

oops, my bad, sorry

Sharn pounces on Tarro and digs his claws into the armored Mandalorian.  Yes, per SW, you do damage the round you grapple, correct.



Top 'O the Round!

Chris wrote:
Daxx 20
Tarro 18
T'son 13 (tie goes to the PC, I guess)
Mandos 13
Rakhu 6
Sharn 6

Ok, Daxx is up

Move Object on Rakhu:

Roll(1d20)+8:
13,+8
Total:21

I think that does it? I'm trying to just put him next to me.. that should be in my range.

I think that's all I can do. And Chris, for what it's worth, I should have gotten one shot deflection last round. If they miss me by 5 or less, I can deflect. Dammit

whit10 wrote:Move Object on Rakhu:

Roll(1d20)+8:
13,+8
Total:21

I think that does it?  I'm trying to just put him next to me.. that should be in my range.

I think that's all I can do.  And Chris, for what it's worth, I should have gotten one shot deflection last round.  If they miss me by 5 or less, I can deflect. Dammit

bummer!  

Daxx reaches out with the Force and lifts Rakhu into a superior firing position, next to Daxx

-2 vitality





Tarro hisses at Sharn, "Get your filthy paws off me, now I will have to steam clean my armor to get rid of your stench!"



Tarro uses his wrist blade (vibro blade) and with a Full Round Action, takes 2 attacks, at a -2 penalty for being grappled.  Tarro is furious at the indignity of being grappled and will call upon the Dark Side to give him strength

Force Point
Roll(4d6)+0:
5,1,2,2,+0
Total:10

1st melee attack
Roll(1d20)+17:
18,+17
Total:35

damage
Roll(2d6)+3:
3,4,+3
Total:10

2nd melee attack
Roll(1d20)+12:
12,+14
Total:26

damage
Roll(2d6)+3:
4,5,+3
Total:12


T'son is up

lets try this again - Tson will attempt to create an illusion that will target all of the Mandos.

It is simply a dust storm that is so thick, it blocks out their vision and sensors. Just a mass of blowing, swirling dust, a "brown out".

Using the force point that I would have burned earlier -

Result of the throw of dice "1d20 +2d6 +3" :

9 + 3 + 5 + 3 = 20


DC for their will saves is 20.

Please advise as to the vitality cost if it differs from the rules.

MAS wrote:lets try this again - Tson will attempt to create an illusion that will target all of the Mandos.

It is simply a dust storm that is so thick, it blocks out their vision and sensors. Just a mass of blowing, swirling dust, a "brown out".

Using the force point that I would have burned earlier -

Result of the throw of dice "1d20 +2d6 +3" :

9 + 3 + 5 + 3 = 20
 

DC for their will saves is 20.

Please advise as to the vitality cost if it differs from the rules.

I love it!   I need to get a copy of the rules at work   

Matt, can you please reread the skill description for me, I trust you.  What I am looking for is specific language about how the skill targets someone.  I don't recall that it actually specifies selective targeting.  I think your proposed use is within the scope of what the skill allows, but I think it would end up affecting everyone, including the PCs.  I think only the caster is unaffected by his own illusions.

I think you could, for example, tell the PCs ahead of time, "ok guys, I am going to make an illusion of a rancor beast come running out of that cave, just ignore it, it isn't real."  that would allow the PCs the save to dismiss or just ignore the illusion if it only attacked the NPCs.  or you wave your arms and a giant rock appears and T'son tells everyone to walk into the rock and hide, which they do, etc.

In this instance, considering too that you have never used your powers in front of the PCs, I don't see how the party would have any more reason to disbelieve the illusion than the NPCs.  It is a reasonable event given the surroundings, which is why it would be effective against the Mandos.

I think a full brown out, including sensors, would limit LOS and give everyone full concealment with a 50% miss chance, again affecting everyone except T'son.

I am going to actually argue this one.  Tson is reaching out, through the force, to his target's minds, not projecting a holograph onto the landscape.




No it does not state anything about specifically about targeting, nor does it state that it effects everyone in the area. It simply says "those who perceive them". It seems logical to me that the user would have some level of discretion in who the illusion effects.



If your ruling that all illusions target everyone present, then Tson will not be taking that action.

MAS wrote:I am going to actually argue this one.  Tson is reaching out, through the force, to his target's minds, not projecting a holograph onto the landscape.

If your ruling that all illusions target everyone present, then Tson will not be taking that action.

I actually think it is the opposite, you are projecting an illusory holograph, not specifically targeting individual minds.    This is the same as most Illusion spells in D&D\PF.

Just reading the skill description, it says:

You can use the Force to manifest false visual and auditory images that seem completely real to those who perceive them.   to me that says holograph
 
and

Each person who perceives the illusion perceives the same event.


It also says that a character with incontrovertible proof the illusion isn't real doesn't need to make a save - so if T'son tells the other PCs ahead of time, "I am going to make this illusion" then they wouldn't be affected by it.

I know this isn't D&D, but for example,

Phantasmal Killer specifically says:  You create a phantasmal image of the most fearsome creature imaginable to the subject simply by forming the fears of the subject's subconscious mind into something that its conscious mind can visualize: this most horrible beast. Only the spell's subject can see the phantasmal killer.

whereas Silent\Persistent\Permanent Image, Hallucinatory Terrain\Veil, Disguise Self, etc would all be perceived by the party as well.  they say something like "create visual illusion"

I am not trying to make life difficult for you, but this is an incredibly powerful skill.  A !skill! that is as strong as a full illusionist in D&D, most wizards can't do this kind of illusion until 7th level at least.   I am sorry that it is kind of rough figuring out the boundaries mid-fight.  Like Move Object and Affect Mind, SW characters with Force Skills are very OP compared to any other d20 game.  A low level Force user is more powerful than most wizards\clerics\bards.  I know we don't use Illusions in D&D much, but they would operate in the same manner.  This isn't an MMO or video game where abilities only affect the enemy and not the party.


Feel free to choose another action, if you want.

Tson will maintain the duststorm. Maybe it will play to the advantage of the grappling and such.

A massive dust storm blows into the canyon, seemingly out of nowhere.

Chris wrote:
The LT barks at the recruits, "Pathetic!  You all coulnd't hit the broad side of a Bantha.  Switch to grenades!"

The Lt launches a frag at Daxx's hex DC 10

All 3 Mandos and the Lt, per the Lt's last orders, were going to fire grenades at Daxx's hex, but now are firing at an invisible hex and Total Concealment, which applies to the party and NPCs

from PF
Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can't attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).

Mando 1
Result of the throw of dice "1d100" :

30

miss

Mando 2
Result of the throw of dice "1d100" :

31

miss

Mando 3
Result of the throw of dice "1d100" :

100

hit!

Result of the throw of dice "1d20 +4" :

17 + 4 = 21
hits the hex

damage to Rakhu and Daxx, reflex for half
Result of the throw of dice "4d6 +1" :

6 + 6 + 1 + 2 + 1 = 16

Lt Mando
Result of the throw of dice "1d100" :

100

miss


Rakhu and Daxx need reflex saves, DC 15
Rakhu is up

T'son - you literally just saved Daxx and Rakhu from 3 out of 4 grenade attacks  

It's more a function of SW than anything else. PF and 3.5 allowed you to target enemies for most spells (I know PF does this) but there is also no such thing as 'disbelieving' an illusion anymore. I think in this case, Chris has it down since it's so vague. We all still get will saves.

Daxx's Reflex Save:

Roll(1d20)+8:
15,+8
Total:23

Daxx's Vitality: 22/66 (not good!)

Will Save for the dust storm?

Roll(1d20)+6:
15,+6
Total:21

whew!

thanks for saving my ass, Matt

whit10 wrote:It's more a function of SW than anything else.  PF and 3.5 allowed you to target enemies for most spells (I know PF does this) but there is also no such thing as 'disbelieving' an illusion anymore.  I think in this case, Chris has it down since it's so vague.  We all still get will saves.

not exactly - none of the illusions in PF, except Phantasmal Killer,  where I read everything and made the quotes, allow you to target enemies.  they are all global holographs effecting party and NPCs

whit10 wrote:
Will Save for the dust storm?  

Roll(1d20)+6:
15,+6
Total:21

whew!

you do not get a will save for the illusion, it specifically states that you have to concentrate on it in order to get a will save at all, or have a reason to not believe it is real.

this is exactly the same as PF:

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

Ref 1+8=9

Do I get a will save vs. The illusion due to debris and dust blowing? I'd say I'm interacting with it...

"Daxx, help sharn!"

"I can't help everyone, yo." Daxx is at 1/3 of his vitality right now. Not good

shall I assume that, like every fucking thing, this concentration on disbelief will take a standard action?


Yeah Chris, I forgot about having to concentrate or have something like True Seeing or whatever going.

navyik wrote:Ref 1+8=9

Do I get a will save vs. The illusion due to debris and dust blowing?  I'd say I'm interacting with it...

now you raise an interesting point, Mr. N'butu..... hmmmm.....  I was going to say 'no' but the text specifically says 'visual and auditory' and if you were caught in a dust storm, could one reasonably expect to feel the dust?

Matt did specify

MAS wrote:
It is simply a dust storm that is so thick, it blocks out their vision and sensors. Just a mass of blowing, swirling dust, a "brown out".

to me that sounded like a smokescreen - visual and auditory only.  But Alan makes me wonder about the missing sensation of perhaps feeling the dust?  For instance breathing it in, thus feeling it in your mouth\lungs or feeling actual particles of dust hitting the skin or making noise on the armor......

All the NPCs and PCs would then get the save.

Or it makes me wonder if the 'feeling' element is even needed.  Perhaps being visually impaired because you and they are all 'inside' the illusion = interacting with it.  As opposed to a wall of fog, which just blocks the visual line of sight, but you woulnd't interact with it unless you walked through it........

  maybe this is why we stay away from illusions  


anyone else want to weigh in on this dusty topic?

actually, I think you make a good argument for us to all get a Will Save (baddies included) for that very reason.

It's a stretch though, given that, at least in my understanding, the illusion would probably "simulate" a feeling of sand? I don't know. I think your point about not using Illusions is spot on. lol.

Maybe a Perception check first and, depending on that result, a Will Save? Just a thought

Agree on perc. Check. Sensation depends on the internal/external argument.

To elaborate, a person may fail to notice the absence of a portion of the effect, especially while distracted by other life-or-death factors.

You might consider a table rule differentiating an internally suggested condition as targeting an individual, but with great detail as an alternative to a single-subject effect projected for all onlookers to experience.

I lean towards a Perception check if the illusion isn't confronting the character in any direct way. Say, if it's just a tree in the background or a rug over a trap door. That kind of illusion doesn't really impact the character, except in a passive way.

And I would say make a Will save if the illusion is somehow interacting with the character, say charging at them or something.

Agreed that illusions are tricky to GM. Probably the reason illusionist class got nixed in later editions. Though it's one of my favorite classes in AD&D. Gnome illusionist ftw!

But I don't recall illusions of any magnitude ever being used in the SW movies. It's not really a power I would associate with Force users. Though it's cool they included it in the game.

Kenobi's use of it in the reactor core on the stormtroopers in SW is the only illusion that I can think of in the movies (and that's really reaching).

The Mandos, being inside completely enclosed suits, may be less likely to notice a lack of sensation.

The famous "these aren't the droids your looking for" move could easily be an illusion...Kenobi literally causes the 'troopers to see droids that do NOT fit the description theyve been given.

MAS wrote:The famous "these aren't the droids your looking for" move could easily be an illusion...Kenobi literally causes the 'troopers to see droids that do NOT fit the description theyve been given.

That's an Affect Mind check.   

whit10 wrote:

MAS wrote:The famous "these aren't the droids your looking for" move could easily be an illusion...Kenobi literally causes the 'troopers to see droids that do NOT fit the description theyve been given.

That's an Affect Mind check.   

Thats what they WANT YOU TO BELIEVE.

Great feedback and thoughts, I really appreciate it!

I like the use of "passive" wording that Rob used, along with Josh's perception check idea and Alan's comment about failing to notice the absent portion of the illusion   though I had to read that 2-3 times to understand it's meaning.

as my favorite anchorman Stewart Dailey would say, "Time for New Rules!"

Illusion can be used in 2 specific yet distinct ways:

1) Phantasmal Killer - only the single target can see the multi-sensual illusion, since it is an active and direct illusion, the target does get a Will save to disbelieve, standard vitality and save DC.  It can do vitality damage or cause shaken\fear and can knock out a target if it surpasses vitality and does subdual wound damage.  I need to research damage capability.

2) Hallucinatory Terrain\Persistent Image - everyone that can possibly perceive the visual and auditory only illusion does so.  If the illusion is passive, a tree, a rug, etc then the target gets a perception check to notice that something is 'off' or a glitch in the matrix, so to speak.  If the Illusion directly interacts with any creature, they get a Will save to disbelieve.  If there is any question as to active\passive, like a smokescreen a creature is standing in, then they first get a Perception check, if that succeeds they get a Will save, if not, they fail to notice anything via their minimal interaction.  Perception check DC = Will save DC as determined by roll of Illusion skill at the time it is cast.

*EDIT - either use can be Dark Side, depending on the use.

sound ok?

Sounds good -

works for me

Sorry, chris. I read too many legal briefs...

Perc. 11+9=20
Will 11+1=12

Lobs grenade @ Lt. 20+10=30
(Don't think u can crit a grenade).
Miss chance 11%. Rakhu will cautiously pick his way to where he last saw sharn, hoping visibility improves close up.

Sharn Perception:
7+15=22

Sharn Will Save:
10+7=17


Ignoring the sandstorm, whether he realizes it's an illusion or not, Sharn continues his hog-tie on Tarros.

Maintain grapple:
7+5+11=23

If that does damage (not sure):
2+3+7=12

Sharn will use his additional grapple action to give Tarro the "pinned" condition.

*GM may want to do a house-rule concerning this. Pinned is a little fuzzy in PF and works quite differently in SW.
(PF p.200 & 568, SW p. 171)

I will try to research "pin" later and make a post, I have a trial tomorrow and a lot of prep to do today.....

Ok, trying to resolve a few things at once here.....

navyik wrote:
Lobs grenade @ Lt.  20+10=30
(Don't think u can crit a grenade).
Miss chance 11%.  Rakhu will cautiously pick his way to where he last saw sharn, hoping visibility improves close up.

Yes, a grenade can crit, but with 11% you miss due to concealment.  Rakhu notices something is not right about the dust storm but can't get his mind around what it is.  Rakhu continues to believe the illusion.  Let's say Rakhu moves at half speed, since you said "caustiously pick his way".  This is still enough to find Sharn and Tarro wrestling in the dust.  map updated below

Robyo wrote:Sharn Perception:
7+15=22

Sharn Will Save:
10+7=17


Ignoring the sandstorm, whether he realizes it's an illusion or not, Sharn continues his hog-tie on Tarros.

Maintain grapple:
7+5+11=23

If that does damage (not sure):
2+3+7=12

Sharn will use his additional grapple action to give Tarro the "pinned" condition.

*GM may want to do a house-rule concerning this. Pinned is a little fuzzy in PF and works quite differently in SW.
(PF p.200 & 568, SW p. 171)

Like Rakhu, Sharn notices something is wrong but continues to believe the illusion, this really has no effect since he is already grappling Tarro.

See the new house rules clarification on grappling, the Pin attempt succeeds but does not do damage.  Tarro is now pinned and immobile under Sharn's mighty grip.

Daxx is up

Did my Will save from earlier count or do I have to roll again?

Never mind, I believe that a Perception check is also in order?

whit10 wrote:Never mind, I believe that a Perception check is also in order?

right, same DC of 20.

which brings up the issue that none of the NPCs got Perception or Will saves, since they acted before the rules clarification. go ahead and roll Perception for last turn, if that fails, roll again for this turn, with a new Will save, if your Perception check succeeds.

I will give the NPCs 2 perception checks on their next turn to catch them up