OoG during Pirates

don't worry, Matt, the porn industry will lead the way for "full immersion" [/quote]

That they will. Porn industry adoption was the winning factor for VHS and BLUE RAY in the movie industry, IIRC.

We play with my brother Jon from FL using just Discord video chat. He can see the board and 2-3 people, we can see him and everyone can see the map. It works well for 1 person to play remotely, but it doesn't work as well for multiple remote players.

Respectfully. It sounds more like a "didn't develop further" than a hard stop. If I thought we'd actually get together and use it, I could put together an economical, reliable telepresence group gaming "system" over a weekend. Y'all talk about limitations like you don't hang with the guy that designed, built, and managed what was, at its time in 08-10, the most detailed and sophisticated live/virtual/constructive training environment ever created by humanity. Sketch out your requirements and I'll get you there if you like.

[quote have played lots of MMOs with headsets and 5-20-100 people in chat rooms doing castle sieges or large scale field battles. It is fun, for sure, but it is still playing a video game'[/quote]

For what you are describing (holo gaming table) you'd want to use AR (augmented reality) instead of painting over everything with VR. You could still have a physical table and AR telepresence puts your players in chairs, then AR mapping covers your playspace. You're just creating a less immersive environment than it is capable of, which is more about use case planning than it is tech not being available. The only/big caveat is that goggles or a device are still needed.

@ Chris - thanks for the game link, snaggin' it!

@ Chris 2 - Check out "Dominions 5" when you geta minute. Kind of old school like "Master of Monsters" - its turn-based and can be played "by email" so it'd be easy to play at a relaxed pace. Scored it last year, haven't played it much but would love to throw down on something more "board game" like.
[url=https://store.steampowered.com/app/722060/Dominions_5__Warriors_of_the_Faith/]https://store.steampowered.com/app/722060/Dominions_5_

Awesome!

Happy New Year, everyone!

MAS wrote:
Y'all talk about limitations like you don't hang with the guy that designed, built, and managed what was, at its time in 08-10, the most detailed and sophisticated live/virtual/constructive training environment ever created by humanity. Sketch out your requirements and I'll get you there if you like.

Fair enough, given I have no idea what you built and have never seen it.  If you want to slide me a Top Secret code and access to the military server, I would be happy to check it out


My dream design is simple:  I want it to feel like we are all sitting around a table together. GO!

The Ted talk you posted hits the nail on the head - I don't want to play in a 2d world.  I want to see the game board and the players in a real 3d manner.

...although, the stuff they have for miniatures and 'scenery' now is far better than back in the day. Though some of it is a bit pricey.

damn straight!

Is it wrong that I kinda wish something "strange" WOULD go down so we could adventure together for realz?

@ Chris: Challenge accepted, Project "Table" is a GO!

I realized after I posted, that I probably haven't fully explained the projects I worked on in much detail. I really only realized lately that what we created must have been the first of its kind and scale. Just kinda rambled out that way and I went with it cuz I thought it sounded badass, lol!

I was tasked with creating a federated, synchronized, LVC (live /virtual /constructive*) training environment. While we used at differing scales of operation, at its largest, I was successfully able to "game master" an entire province of a particular country that was relevant at the time, in real-time. We were training commanders and headquarters staff, so the environment had to accurately portray several layers of complexity. Civilians: Leave the house on foot or with a vehicle at times that make sense, going places that make sense, praying at correct times, etc. "patterns of life" is the term. Within that, you add a layer of criminal/insurgent networks: key figures traveling to meetings with other key figures, weapons being smuggled/emplaced, enemy attacks, etc. All of the people have to have a biometric database that fits into the overall intel packages being worked by the scenario so that anyone who has been properly IDd has backstory/intel. The next layer is similar but is local police, army, and other allied forces operating in the area, even NGOs. Over that, we add a layer of Marines in the field. They have to look and act the way Marines do when they fight, and be commanded/portrayed as such. all that activity also needs to be flown over by intelligence/reconnaissance assets with specific capabilities (thermal, FLIR, LIDAR, etc) so we could pump virtual feeds into the command tents. Artillery assets need to look and behave correctly, and real-world "call for fire" procedures have to translate from Live play into virtual artillery effects, or vice versa. Vehicles such as tanks, helicopters, and fixed-wing aircraft are participating either as live assets, being flown by actual pilots on platform-specific simulators, or more casually controlled - but in any case, we still need someone dedicated to keeping the "virtual" airspace lanes clear so imaginary aircraft and artillery don't co-occupy virtual space.

All of this was done with about a half dozen programs, 150 laptops, and a couple of Alienware towers I ran at my desk, running parallel to the classified systems running on a network that most of the software we used was not allowed to touch due to lack of having yet been given security certification. To shorten that, I had to run a system that accurately mimicked a system it couldn't touch. Some of the software was older government sims, some of it was white-hot off the press commercial stuff. Boston Dynamic (who does all the advanced robots you see in the videos) was the company I worked with to develop the "patterns of life" capabilities and to expand our ability to program human and tactical behaviors. I ended up designing the user interface and writing a lot of the performance standards and capability requirements for the resulting system.

Later work was more focused on making virtual training environments that are recorded from real-world live play data (people and vehicles wearing trackers, projected onto virtual terrain built from real-world maps) but that system was much more settled and I designed none of it.



*From wiki:
Live - A simulation involving real people operating real systems. Military training events using real equipment are live simulations. They are considered simulations because they are not conducted against a live enemy.
Virtual - A simulation involving real people operating simulated systems. Virtual simulations inject a Human-in-the-Loop into a central role by exercising motor control skills (e.g., flying jet or tank simulator), decision-making skills (e.g., committing fire control resources to action), or communication skills (e.g., as members of a C4I team).
Constructive - A simulation involving simulated people operating simulated systems. Real people stimulate (make inputs to) such simulations, but are not involved in determining the outcomes. A constructive simulation is a computer program. For example, a military user may input data instructing a unit to move and to engage an enemy target. The constructive simulation determines the speed of movement, the effect of the engagement with the enemy and any battle damage that may occur. These terms should not be confused with specific constructive models such as Computer Generated Forces (CGF), a generic term used to refer to computer representations of forces in simulations that attempts to model human behavior. CGF is just one example model being used in a constructive environment. There are many types of constructive models that involve simulated people operating simulated systems.

And all that is to say, not that we have to or need to, but if we wanted to, I'm confident that with the group present we could put together some nifty stuff if we chose to collaborate and develop something.

Do I remember someone at some point saying there was a .pdf of Volo's Guide floating around? If so, would someone give me the primer on how to access it? I'd like to double check something before this final bit of the temple pops off.

Much appreciated.

google is your friend.

https://thetrove.net/Books/Dungeons%20&%20Dragons/D&D%205th%20Edition/Core/



thetrove.net has everything

Its also on the google drive with all the other 5e stuff.

On that note, I'm probably gonna drop paying for that soon, so download the whole folder when you get a chance, gents.

If anyone needs the link, email me. It's not a link I want hot on this public site.

I got what I needed. Took the liberty of preserving all the source materials for the future. I can't wait to see how this next encounter goes. Y'all better be on top of your game. I'd truly hate to kill anyone.

Muahahaha.

Josef909 wrote:I got what I needed.  Took the liberty of preserving all the source materials for the future.  I can't wait to see how this next encounter goes.  Y'all better be on top of your game.  I'd truly hate to kill anyone.  

Muahahaha.

speaking of GMs killing players....  5e remade the most brutal 1e module, "Temple of Terror" into "Temple of Annihilation".  They used more playtesters than on any other module.

ToA has a plot device that prevents any type of resurrection of characters, if you die, you re-roll.  It is designed with viscous traps, puzzles and intelligent foes so that the GM can really try to kill the party.  It is billed as a "meatgrinder" that the party has to try and survive.

I would love to give that a try, given that it has been extensively playtested to be fair.  The "meatgrinder" mode is designed for veteran players with optimized builds (number crunched).  

Just a suggestion for a chance of pace whenever Joe has completed his story.

I thumbed through ToA as a possible option for a tabletop group before settling on Storm Kings Thunder. Total meat grind and many of the dungeons I saw in the book were straight up unfair.

Still would've been fun.

@Matt - very cool! I had no idea the scale and complexity of your project

I love the interaction between Live and Virtual... sounds like the military version of LARPing.

the crossover also reminds me of Pokemon GO which uses real GPS data and maps, but then inserts virtual Pokemons and events in the cartoon interface of your phone. this is again 2d as your Ted talker said.

Josef909 wrote:I thumbed through ToA as a possible option for a tabletop group before settling on Storm Kings Thunder.  Total meat grind and many of the dungeons I saw in the book were straight up unfair.

Still would've been fun.

don't be scared

this group can handle it

I'm up for the challenge.

Actually it's a meta sequel to Tomb of Horrors. There is no module called Temple of Terror, that I know of.

That being said, I'd be down to run through Tomb of Annihilation, though I've already read it.

Matt, sounds cool!

Temple of Annihilation also sounds fun.
Level?

ToA can be run from 1st - end (12? maybe) or it can start at 5th or at 9th if we just want the main end dungeons.

I would suggest the 9th option, given how long everything takes on the forum


I was thinking of some other fun options to spice it up:

if\when your character dies, you cannot use the same race or class again

if\when your character dies, you can reroll at the same level, but with only basic starting equipment.  this would prevent stacking up magic items from death.

if\when your character dies, and at the next rest point, you have to take over GM duty until the next death.  sort of a death tax

*** with above, each GM only gets to see 1 map level at a time

alternately, we could rotate GMs on every level of the dungeon

if\when your character dies, the player puts some amount of money, like $5 or something small, into a pot, again a death tax.  the pot at the end could fund something fun for the group - like buying that dungeon-mapping software for future games or custom minis for any characters that live through the whole adventure or whatever the group decides


just suggestions, open to any other thoughts as well

I'd like to play but have no interest in GMing again if I can help it.

I'm down to give ToA a run, in any form. I like the idea of "hardcore mode" campaign mechanics, with some discussion/collaboration that could be dope. I'd suggest we loosely schedule a handoff between people willing to GM, 2-3 encounters or something. Potential variant for a module where several people know the material -

Dungeon Defense:
Players control the monsters and the GM controls a party of PCs.

Dungeon Defense sounds like a fiasco on the forum. Fun for a small group in person though.

I agree with a higher level approach if the structure of the module gives a clear entry point for a higher level. Does the DM have to track xp to make it work as a mechanical exercise?

Is it reasonable to make a list of all of the treasures recoverable in the dungeons we are skipping and have the characters draft items that are not agreed to be obvious allocations to specific characters (like a staff no-one else can use or a weapon that someone is already specialized in)? Make characters first, including the DMs character for replacing the next DM. Do it without the knowledge of the treasures. Then make the list and hash it out like the crew did. Draft according to standard fantasy football order with compensatory mid round picks for those with less agreed obvious allocations?

Someone who scores a seriously badassmuthufrakkin’ item by allocation can turn it down or give up their first pick.

IMHO the lower level stuff is actually more interesting, with the expansive hexcrawl portion. And dinosaur jockey races.

I'd have to argue for the higher level party as well. I'm just not a fan of low level characters anymore. It seems like a slow crawl to get to having some of the nicer powers for the class and what not..

I like your idea for gear and treasure Alan.

I agree, lots of details to hash out over time

Xanathar's guide pg 135 has a table (like PF and 3.5 used to have) that shows magic item distribution for a party per level

for example at level 9 a party should have 28 minor items and 6 major items

it also gives rules for buying and selling magic items in a standard fantasy world

I haven't looked closely at ToA, but other pre-made adventures that I have run sometimes give specific items but sometimes also just say DM create a treasure horde for X level, which means a pre-determined number of rolls on several of the magic item tables.

XGE makes a point that modules are not designed with a set amount of magic items and magic items are not required, but are a bonus to make life easier. Some items like Ring of Pro, Cloak of Pro, etc are universal and could be used by any class, so they would be more valuable to a party with some turnover than say Plate Mail +1.

So depending on how we do it, it might be wise to choose universal items over specific items.

The xge magic items by tier appears to stack with the previous tier.

I agree with you Chris but I would suggest that some of the better higher level items are "generic" in some way since there's usually at least one tank, one mage (of some sort) and a rogue 'type' in most parties (among others)...

so a set of +1 Plate wouldn't be bad.... it could be used by many different classes; but that might be a time for the GM to 'adjust accordingly' to the party, which shouldn't be a big deal I would think

So is the party obligated to supply a new post death character with a share of magic items? Or do you come back SOL? I can see how it could get unbalanced and/or mercenary. “Why should my cleric heal you if you kept my old shield after my fighter died?”

well, we could NOT act like a bunch of 12 year old wankers and actually be cool about that sort of thing... which has been the way things have usually been so far.

This isn't the old World of Darkness, we could be less mercenary about it.

Just my 2 cents

Robyo wrote:Considering either: a life domain cleric, or a necromancer that doesn't know he's a necromancer and thinks he's just a really good EMT.

love the EMT Necromancer idea!

Was thinking about an artificer. Something different, and may be very handy.

Nice Josh. Would be great to have a predetermined mechanic, though. Since we’re supposed to number crunch.

Oh, I agree Alan, I just think that there are some "general" magic items that many characters can use... and obviously, the GM could always substitute an equivalent item for something really cool on the treasure chart.

Is it RaW to apply an “intelligence check” bonus to an int based attack roll or save as much as to a skill?

I agree we should not be dicks about it
I also agree we just need to decide on a fair mechanic ahead of time

@Rob - just remember (since you have read the module) there is no raise dead of any kind, but undead (I believe) are still allowed. Undead cannon-fodder tanks are always great!

@Matt - I played an Artificer briefly at home and was less than impressed, although it was low level.


We also need to decide what books are allowed. Eberron, Volo's, everything?


I am happy playing anything and was waiting to hear what others were thinking. I agree that we need 1 dedicated support\healer. If Rob doesn't play a Life Cleric or Necro support, I would play a LC or a glamour Bard (those temp HP + free movement buffs are amazing). I am also happy playing a melee bully or a caster-blaster-controller.

navyik wrote:Is it RaW to apply an “intelligence check” bonus to an int based attack roll or save as much as to a skill?

No.   see pg 174 in the PHB





It specifically says that attack rolls are NOT ability checks.  Saving throws are also NOT ability checks as they are not an ACTION the character attempts on their turn.

The one that actually gets overlooked is INITIATIVE, which IS an ability check, so for example, the Bard's ability to add 1/2 level to any ability check that he isn't proficient in, does actually ADD to the initiative roll.

Chris wrote:@Matt - I played an Artificer briefly at home and was less than impressed, although it was low level.

I can see it being pretty limited early on. I've mapped out a few 9th level options, and the Artillerist looks like a solid support class once it gets running. Lots of ranged damage, moderate healing, and the mobile turret has great dungeon crawling utility as a tank/agro draw/scout/trap sweeper. I'll post up a build and would be happy for feedback.

The other build I mapped out was a bugbear battlemaster "reach" great weapon glaive fighter (Variant of your polearm fighter idea, Chris). Delivers melee at 15ft on its turn and stretch that to 20 with a superiority die. used martial adept feat to pile on maneuvers. The intent is reach dps with a battlespace control capability = push, trip, etc.

Also chewing on some kind of damage magnet/tank build, intended to sponge up damage and slough off effects.

MAS wrote:
I can see it being pretty limited early on. I've mapped out a few 9th level options, and the Artillerist looks like a solid support class once it gets running. Lots of ranged damage, moderate healing, and the mobile turret has great dungeon crawling utility as a tank/agro draw/scout/trap sweeper. I'll post up a build and would be happy for feedback.

The other build I mapped out was a bugbear battlemaster "reach" great weapon glaive fighter (Variant of your polearm fighter idea, Chris). Delivers melee at 15ft on its turn and stretch that to 20 with a superiority die. used martial adept feat to pile on maneuvers. The intent is reach dps with a battlespace control capability = push, trip, etc.

Also chewing on some kind of damage magnet/tank build, intended to sponge up damage and slough off effects.

I look forward to seeing the Artificer build!  


As for the Bugbear, they are a fantastic race for just that ability alone.  Polearm\Glaive master + Sentinel with 15-20ft reach is outstanding battlefield control.  

I messed around with a Bugbear Monk with Spear Master (extra reach and damage) and Sentinel, similar idea.


If I went melee bully, I am looking at Barbarian Ancestral Guardian from XGE.  Some really nice damage mitigation for the party and tanking capability in addition to the usual dps of a barb.

Ancestral Guardian has 2 cool abilities. It's the closest thing to a "taunt" ability that doesn't offer a saving throw or concentration (like compel duel)

Ancestral Protectors

Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, spectral warriors appear when you enter your rage. While you’re raging, the first creature you hit with an attack on your turn becomes the target of the warriors, which hinder its attacks. Until the start of your next turn, that target has disadvantage on any attack roll that isn't against you, and when the target hits a creature other than you with an attack, that creature has resistance to the damage of the target’s attacks.
Spirit Shield

Beginning at 6th level, the guardian spirits that aid you can provide supernatural protection to those you defend. If you are raging and a creature you can see within 30 feet of you takes damage, you can use your reaction to reduce that damage by 2d6.

When you reach certain levels in this class, you can reduce the damage by more: by 3d6 at 10th level and by 4d6 at 14th level.

Late to the theory/party-building convoy, but I would really like to see what a lore bard does at higher levels. Playing Gaston in Robs earlier game was blue balls. I could find anything to play and have fun, but that extra bit of healing and versatility would do well for a group.

I have a few ideas brewing so I will let y’all decide first.

just jotting down the ideas mentioned. obviously, nobody is locked into anything, but just to keep a running tab....



Matt
- bugbear control fighter
- artificer damage\control
- super tanky tank


Rob
- Cleric of Life healbot
- Necro support

Joe
- Lore Bard support\control

Chris
- melee bully barbarian
- CoL or Glamour bard heals\support
- arcane blaster\control

Josh
- undead Klingon fighter\mage\thief that masquerades by day as a french pastry chef

Alan
- goblin super hero that somehow does 84d6 damage as a bonus action

Josef909 wrote:Late to the theory/party-building convoy, but I would really like to see what a lore bard does at higher levels.  Playing Gaston in Robs earlier game was blue balls.  I could find anything to play and have fun, but that extra bit of healing and versatility would do well for a group.

Agreed, I've always wanted to see higher level bard at work. Its a really underappreciated/under used class in the circles I've played, so have never seen anyone swing for the fences with it. What level do you think Bard gets its legs?

Chris wrote:Ancestral Guardian has 2 cool abilities.

Good find, those both run along the lines of the damage sponge. Goliath for additional healing, maybe splash two/three levels of fighter for even Paladin. Buffing up saves is a probably a good idea, too.

Chris wrote:We also need to decide what books are allowed. Eberron, Volo's, everything?

My recommendation is "any/all licensed/official" 5e materials. More options.

Alan wrote:I have a few ideas brewing so I will let y’all decide first.

Slap them on the table dawg, open communication so we can avoid duplication, and even coordinate the capabilities of the overall party better.

Josh
- undead Klingon fighter\mage\thief that masquerades by day as a french pastry chef

Alan
- goblin super hero that somehow does 84d6 damage as a bonus action

Brilliant!

ALSO PSA FOR ALL - DOWNLOAD THE GOOGLE DRIVE "Gaming folder" ASAP. I am canceling it next month. If you need the link, email me for it.

yeah... it will be a cold day in hell before I play anything "Klingon" again. Done it, been there... not interested. lol (and yes, I know you were joking... good one!)

I'm looking at various combos with a Warlock or a Tempest Cleric.

Chris wrote:just jotting down the ideas mentioned. obviously, nobody is locked into anything, but just to keep a running tab....



Matt
- bugbear control fighter
- artificer damage\control
- super tanky tank


Rob
- Cleric of Life healbot
- Necro support
-  Lore Bard or Druid: Circle of Spores

Joe
- Lore Bard support\control

Chris
- melee bully barbarian
- CoL or Glamour bard heals\support
- arcane blaster\control

Josh
- Warlock
- Tempest Cleric
- undead a cold day in hell before I play anything "Klingon" fighter\mage\thief that masquerades by day as a french pastry chef

Alan
- goblin super hero that somehow does 84d6 damage as a bonus action

I will keep updating in the quotes as people post or the poster can just do the same

lol... I should just play "a guy" with only one actual power but it's a doozy. (not even sure that's possible)