ALL DISCUSSION and QUESTIONS

That's an interesting observation.  I hadn't actually noticed that was happening, to be honest.  

I disagree with the anti-meta gaming argument in principle anyways.  Table talk, strategizing and a dash of meta gaming has always been part of the appeal to RPGs for me.  I think a team learns to work to together in real life and anticipate each others actions, if not actually practice them in down time.  

I would not like to see a mechanic like secret declarations.  I think that just slows the game down again.  
Battle Tech style reverse-initiative declaration would fix this, but that is just as slow as play-by-post initiative we already use, so its no real help.  

I would certainly use those as a plot device if we got hit with an EMP and lost all Comms.  That would make for an interesting twist for a fight or 2.  

I think the easiest fix, for anyone that doesn't like the meta gaming aspect would be for that player to simply NOT READ the other posts.  We are all on the honor system anyways as far as rolling dice goes.  Or that person(s) could chose not to play this type of game.  

For myself, I don't think I want to participate in future games that have 6-8 people.  The pace is just so slow, even with good response from a GM, that I get bored, disinterested and lose track of what's happening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thYUTgVLQg8


check this video out, or others like it. it is a bit long at 30m but feel free to scroll through. it is a guy playing around with the SOLASTA dungeon maker tool. Solasta is a game based on D&D 5e. It is like a Baldur's Gate with a full story. It also has a customizable dungeon maker too.

I could see this replacing the PP maps. It is limited to 4 characters in a party, but you can spin the perspective, plot out movement, etc

Chris wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thYUTgVLQg8


check this video out, or others like it.  it is a bit long at 30m but feel free to scroll through.  it is a guy playing around with the SOLASTA dungeon maker tool. Solasta is a game based on D&D 5e.  It is like a Baldur's Gate with a full story.  It also has a customizable dungeon maker too.  

I could see this replacing the PP maps.  It is limited to 4 characters in a party, but you can spin the perspective, plot out movement, etc

Wow thats really cool, will deep dive into that video later! 

My Moms in the hospital, went in for some tests yesterday  when not feeling well, and they kept her for more, so Ill be up there most the day Im guessin. Hoping to have replies to the excellent feedback and game updates done tonight.

Hey guys, had a talk with Matt the other day (well he did most of the talking) and wanted to let you know that I'm still on board to rejoin. Baby still doesn't completely sleep through the night, but it is a lot better now.

I ordered the Ultramodern 5 standard ruleset from Drive Thru RPG, since it's marked down to $19. With tax and ground shipping it was $25 out the door, so not bad!

Looking forward to building a character when it arrives. Sorry, but working from PDF only is too much of a headache.

Haven't read this entire thread, but one thing that I mentioned to Matt is that tabletalk could all be "radio/comm chatter," which lends to realism IMHO. Perhaps if there was a preliminary mission briefing phase, where questions were asked and maps of the mission introduced, then strategies could be worked out ahead of time. That would expediate the actual operation, since everyone would already have their tasks worked out. Of course, the enemy could always throw a wrench in the works, and there's always room for improv, but still might seem more like a legit mission op. Just a thought.

Man, ya'all droppin' boms!!! Will try to hit all those wickets but Im sure Ill miss something.

Mom staying at Hospital again tonight, and likely having a minor surgery tomorrow. Currently looking at launching for trip on Weds. 

---

I'm going to cease encounter updates and move to pure narrative, as there appears to be some confusion in the declarations and we can wrap this up easier that way. The "final" video will include action that we didn't video here at the end/ 

META/COORDINATION:

The meta aspect is interesting split between a couple philosophies and preferences there. My POV parallels @Chris and @Rob observations about modern comms, and I also want to consider the effect of team training and familiarity. Consider these fundamental Battle Drills; you guys executed a sound BD 2 REACT TO CONTACT with a just a few sidebar posts in OOG. Imagine you had been running these drills for years, and then had also worked with a handful of folks and gotten your own internal BDs and TTPS (tactics, techniques, and procedures). 

I feel that the meta aspect of permissive comms/coordination enables the players to display the level of teamwork that this kind of profession typically develops; Would much rather see the players kabitz a little than sterilize the tactical environment, especially in a forum format with reduced comms vs at a live table. An Enterprising team might even throw together a little play book of their own, establish their own internal protocols, verbal & visual signals, etc. if they wanted to have some fun with it. To sum up, I think it suits this game very well and will help convey the "elite operative / spec op" ascetic. To me its welcome break from the "big table" games, which frankly, are almost always a free for all of individual PC actions, focus, and tactics. As @Chris posted earlier, the big table games have developed some other tangible challenges as well. (Its another discussion, but I think its an appropriate point after this Aboleth fight ends to reassess/realign that campaign.) 

@ Alan - "Simultaneous Resolution" may not be the most accurate term, "Sequenced Batch Resolution" may be better, and "Batch Team Declaration" vs "Individual Sequenced declaration" maybe a more accurate differentiation? "Batch Team Declaration with Sequenced Batch Resolution" is what Ill go with for now until we come up with something better.   

I actually feel this method FIXS the "low roll/last" declaration exploit - You WANT your actions to happen first, because you don't know what effects might hit you before that, as IRL you want to make things happen before your opponent can, reduce the amount of enemy left alive to fire by the time their Initiative number hits. Can't see any advantage to low initiative roll in this format. Lemme know what I may have missed. 

Fully encouraged team/player sidebars and cross talk from the get go, in planning and roleplay, so to reiterate, my expectation is that you coordinate either in OOG or on your own if you choose to, and bring your best overall team effort to the next round, to whatever level you find fun. Feel free to go to town on more dialogue, the more depth we get in character and in the video the betta, IMO. Even standing around on overwatch - thats opportunities for roleplay via internal team radio chatter, passing on impressions of the situation, letting each other know where you are, what you see, or some character building banter. 

@Rob "roleplay in the briefing" will work great for some of the adventures! 

MAPPING/RANGE/MOVEMENT Data Display:

This is really the key piece that this has be dialed in better. This encounter really laid out the needs for ARMA tools that don't currently exist - Which is awesome because now I've got a solid idea how Id prefer that to work. Lots of difficulty with adding grids to the bigger maps (until they build my tools, lol!) but its something that will work well under some other circumstances.

Agree the chart is too cumbersome for both GM and players; just ran with it rather than change mid-test, but have been working some ideas. Then the mention of more limited POVs/Fog of war got me thinking.

Use The character's direct POV in either First person and 3rd Person views? 3P offers more peripheral vision and you get to see your character, so I like it better between the two. The green line is measured 30ft, the orange 60. In addition to marking range to visible target, I've pinned a few distances to some key terrain as well. As to not punish players for potential eyesight issues, Friendlies/enemies, civilians, etc can be bracketed as shown below (with correct NATO standard graphic control measures, even!). Figure that anything that passes passive/direct perception within 100 ft should be indicated whether or not it is fully visible. Shown below, BollyWood's position, with two visible enemy (dead) with range to target notations and a few other range to targets to add perspective

So, Each turn you get your character's actual "real" POV, and hopefully enough info to navigate easily. I added a lot of broad situational awareness shots and video sweeps before, but we could scale that back What do you guys think? 

Your current process fixes several problems. I’m only pointing out observations as continual improvement. I would happily continue to play just as we are. If the current process yields a little bit of meta, then it’s no more than what you get with typical social banter during table play. It is also easily tolerated with the explanations you gave. I’m digging it.

I hope your mom has a smooth surgery and uncomplicated recovery!

Thanks for considering all the feedback, we are not a quiet bunch to work with, lol.

Rob, I hope you can join us again, that would be awesome!

The 3p perspective is interesting and worth a playtest for a battle for sure. My only thought is that seems to make a lot of extra work for the GM. It would certainly add a level of immersive and limited POV. In a modern setting, I wonder how much drone\satellite feed a squad would get to provide the overhead perspective that we are already used to from gaming.

I don't have a problem with seeing the map as we always have, so I am not suggesting otherwise, but current tech also provides a reason that we see it.

I don't personally like FPS games and don't play them. So I don't want to see the game change to all FPS or over-the-shoulder 3p for everything.

navyik wrote:Your current process fixes several problems. I’m only pointing out observations as continual improvement. I would happily continue to play just as we are. If the current process yields a little bit of meta, then it’s no more than what you get with typical social banter during table play. It is also easily tolerated with the explanations you gave. I’m digging it.

Sincerely appreciate your feedback @ Alan! I value your perspective, even I fi disagree, it makes me think out my idea more and thats dope.

Chris wrote:I hope your mom has a smooth surgery and uncomplicated recovery!

Thanks for considering all the feedback, we are not a quiet bunch to work with, lol.

Rob, I hope you can join us again, that would be awesome!

The 3p perspective is interesting and worth a playtest for a battle for sure.  My only thought is that seems to make a lot of extra work for the GM.  It would certainly add a level of immersive and limited POV.  In a modern setting, I wonder how much drone\satellite feed a squad would get to provide the overhead perspective that we  are already used to from gaming.  

I don't have a problem with seeing the map as we always have, so I am not suggesting otherwise, but current tech also provides a reason that we see it.  

I don't personally like FPS games and don't play them.  So I don't want to see the game change to all FPS or over-the-shoulder 3p for everything.  

Appreciate it man, she should be recovering soon and home tomorrow. 

Serious, I like the feedback from all, even the "this isnt working" - its really helping develop the idea. All glory to the test team! 

Ill play around with some more options as we play through the next encounter, which is isn't combat (unless things go VERY wrong, lol!) and hopefully have something solid for the next fight. 

Looking forward tp getting @Rob plugged in when the time is right.

Chris wrote:Rob, I hope you can join us again, that would be awesome!

Thanks Chris! Looking forward to it!

I'm curious, since you're such a big fan of the IP, have you tried any of the Star Wars board games by FFG? The ones I know of are X-Wing, Armada, Rebellion, Imperial Assault, and Outer Rim. I've heard they are all quite good.

I acquired Outer Rim recently and have only played the solo option, but it's a pretty fun sandbox experience. You can play as a bounty hunter, smuggler, or mercenary going around in the (you guessed it) outer rim of the galaxy. There's options to go on missions, acquire gear, and modify your starship. Lots of different paths towards victory as well. Looking to get Matt in on the experience soon.

I haven't even heard of those, thanks for the alert, Rob!

In all honesty, we burned out hard on board games, Catan type games and even playing D&D as a family during Covid times. The boys and I have recently gotten back into building Magic decks and playing again. We play with my brother in FL using video chat so we can see each others cards. We have mostly been playing League of Legends online with my brother and his partner since they are both way into that MOBA game. The weather has finally moved out of mud season and into a more enjoyable range. We have been going to the local pool, playing basketball, going to the skatepark, etc.

Oh yeah, physical activities are definitely a plus! Enjoy the nice weather while you can! I definitely understand getting burned out on gateway/family weight games like Catan or 5e. My gamer group (adults) enjoy complex games. We will occasionally throw in the lite/filler game, however. Reign is a MOBA style "king of the hill" style board game that's total Ameritrash dice chucker.

That's one reason why I enjoy running Starfinder. I love the variety and options available in a space fantasy setting, and while it feels like "D&D in space," Paizo knows how to deliver on the crunchier side of things. The system can get quite complex. Another reason why I'm intrigued to play Ultramodern 5. It has a lot more under the hood than standard 5e.

In the limited exposure I have had here, I am REALLY impressed with u5, especially the redux rules. To me, it seems like a perfect balance between 5e and Pathfinder.

Chris wrote:In the limited exposure I have had here, I am REALLY impressed with u5, especially the redux rules.   To me, it seems like a perfect balance between 5e and Pathfinder.  

I would like to see 5e create ladder and archetype lists that can be applied to any class. U5 needs multiclassing rules. Otherwise it’s brilliant.

Good golly what a week. Moms home and sleeping things off, we wait for results of the next procedure and tests. 

@Chris, thanks for rolling Renda! 

Finally got a stimmy payment and pulled the trigger on Fantasy grounds Ultimate with U5 redux rules. Got the version that allows others to connect using the free version and use all the features in my game, so I can host with it at no cost to my players. Its got some great tools that should really help with displaying range on ARMA produced maps, and should be a great tool for organizing and running my forum games too.

Its come a very very long way from when we tried it 10+ years back. You can run cloud hosted games now as well as locally hosted - by all appearances it could be left running and used much like the forum is now, but with built in dice, maps, combat tracker, etc. 

lots of solid ideas Im still hoping to circle back on in this thread!

Glad to hear your mom is chillin at home.

Looking forward to whatever you want to throw at us in this or any game.

MAS wrote:
Its come a very very long way from when we tried it 10+ years back. You can run cloud hosted games now as well as locally hosted - by all appearances it could be left running and used much like the forum is now, but with built in dice, maps, combat tracker, etc. 

I guess it was about 10 years ago.....

I hybrid presentation might be really cool and immersive. I could see using something like FG for tactical map, then swtich to end-of-round\fight narrative combat via ARMA. I guess it depends on how much time and effort that takes for the GM and desired level of polish on the product.

navyik wrote:Glad to hear your mom is chillin at home.

Looking forward to whatever you want to throw at us in this or any game.

Chris wrote:hybrid presentation might be really cool and immersive. I could see using something like FG for tactical map, then switch to end-of-round\fight narrative combat via ARMA. I guess it depends on how much time and effort that takes for the GM and desired level of polish on the product.

Really enjoying the ability to both playtest and dissect these ideas with you gents. 

I dont think a GM could run a game and run ARMA live concurrently, it would be difficult to juggle both at once. What im envisioning now: Use ARMA to produce character avatars, maps, npcs, etc, then use those products in a more traditional manner on FG, then make a hero video afterwards. 

Structure as follows: 

Live Play: a weekly or biweekly 3 hour session, using assets mostly generated in ARMA, then release the hero video at the beginning of the next session. It sums up the last session and pumps up the hype. Space between games gives the GM time to produce the vids and such. 

Forum play could be done in a similar manner, though it'd require some structuring for posting and update schedules. 

Even without "live play map" use of ARMA, I can pre-film action shots and general flavor clips before an encounter. Film each character in a half dozen action animations (firing from shoulder, while prone, providing medical care, talking on radio, standing and talking, etc) - same with enemy, npcs, and encounter highlights. Those can be sprinkled into live play as quick flavor to supplement the map/narrative action. Its all down to the prep work and having a library of tailored visuals featuring the PCs custom avatars and immersive content. 

Ive been chewing over the next encounter and have not found a mechanical structure Im happy with to support it, so Im gonna throw it on the table for feedback.
 
The scene is a tribal council, a negotiation for information. This could conceivably be resolved with a single diplomacy roll, but that leaves me flat. I want to find a way to play out a negotiation that feels a little more like combat, can be played in rounds, and is more engaging.  

The "Spycraft" rule set Has an interesting Dramatic Conflict resolution system that Ive tried to mimic without much success once before. I really like the approach and think itd work great with play by post if adapted well. 

Thoughts?

Spycraft Dramatic Conflict Rules sound good to me!

My U5 book arrived today, so I'll be getting to work building a couple of PCs. Are you all still at 1st level?

I am still wanting to run a demolitions expert, but I'm open about the 2nd character. What else is needed for the team? Maybe a wheelman? A leader/face type? Translator guy? A hacker/comtech guy?

Mime is designed to provide close support to an infiltrator type or to perform the infiltrator role in a pinch.

Bollywood is a macro-techie but can fill in with other tech-related tasks. He’ll be taking heavy weapons soon.  

 We don’t have a REAL Driver, so that would be cool.  Software and electronics might be a need. I don’t know whether Gecko has hacker covered.

Gecko is a highly mobile assassin with thief skills (runner\infiltrator)

Docwagon is a leader\medic (Veteran\Marshall with Healer feat)


any combo of demolitions, driver, comtech\hacker sound good!

Demo guy will be able to do some hacking too.

Driver guy will be a mechanic too. Want to make him as close to a Rigger as I can get without any cybernetic implants LOL!


So, what does JOE team ride around in? An armored carrier?

This looks pretty sweet:

MSFV - Mobile Strike Force Vehicle

Two pickup trucks, but one can dream.

I’d like an armored combine that is modified to hurl heads of cabbage at enemies for bludgeoning damage and a chance to knock prone.

Bollywood is also a mechanic but redundancy of technical ability is totally valid. I also envisioned him as a “rigger” but more on the weapon system side.

we are like Duke and Ripcord in the opening fight of the movie, still just military no idea of COBRA or JOEs... yet

@ Rob: When do you anticipate being ready? I want to know if you will be included in the next encounter. 

@ All: I wont be starting the next encounter for another week until I get back from this CO run picking up my remaining stuff. 

Meantime, we'll do a little housekeeping/roleplay to close up the events of "Road Rage", so I can reshoot a comprehensive encounter video. 

Would still be interested to hear some feedback from @Alan & @ Chris regarding mechanics for dramatic resolution/negotiation as mentioned above. 

---

Rockford is a crazy place. Gunfights in the streets or new bodies found almost everyday (they found one a block from that office I was looking at, last week!) . Yesterday, some close friends of my folks got attacked by a grill fork wielding mentally ill family member in their home.

Some world building / story copypasta from my notes: 

"December 2001: As evidence mounts that a growing wave of chaos and destruction is being coordinated by a nihilistic cult, the Global Incident Joint Operations Elite program is created by unanimous, classified mandate of the UN Security Council. Recognizing that the complex multinational scale of the threat is beyond the capabilities of conventional forces, the world's nation's commit their best to the fight. Special operations troops, field agents, and technical specialists from every corner of the globe are assembled into highly specialized teams. Their mission: Defeat SERPENT and prevent its fanatic doomsday cultists from destroying human civilization!"

I read through the dramatic conflict resolution page.  I am willing to give it a try, but it sounds like just a lot of dice rolling instead of rolling 1 time with more\fewer modifiers.  It sounds like turning a conversation into a social-combat scene.  




or another way to think about it.....

RPGs are typically divided into 3 primary elements:  combat, exploration and social encounters

Combat - tactical, attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws....dice rolling, using maps and minis, lots of dice rolling!

Exploration - narrative descriptions, traps (1 die roll), puzzle rooms (maybe skill checks) mostly meta-thinking by players, stealth\tracking\history checks which are all the type of skills NOT used in combat.  

Social - roleplaying.  talking in character, acting, pretending to think like the character.  usually this is the area of the game with the least dice being rolled.  Sure, there are occasional bluff\deception\etc checks, but they can be the result of a long dialogue done in character.  



just speaking for myself, I wouldn't want to see (or see the need) to turn Social scenes into social-combat scenes.

Just a quick "hello" from the road. Weather is turning sketchy and I am going to try and load up today and turn around, get back over the Rockies before the snow and thunderstorms hit tomorrow.

have a found a solid skill challenge mechanic to support the scene, but we'll get things set up when I get back next week. 

Wish I had the opportunity to sneak up to Steamboat for a visit @ Chris but time and resources are keeping this trip kinda short/focused.

Whew! That was an ass kicker. managed to dodge crappy weather but 5 days straight in the van: Starting to think Im not as young as I think I am anymore!

@Rob: your character's look good at first glance but give them a detailed look too. Can you provide a picture or two to give me something to work your 3d models from? 

@Chris: Going to circle back for some discussion on your last feedback, but be assured it factored into the structure we'll be using being light/straight forward. 

The negotiation scene will be mechanically centered around a skill challenge; the party needs to generate X successes before they generate Y failures. Of course the party doesn't know the DCs or what X and Y are! relevant skills would include:

Intelligence

• History
  
  
• Investigation
  
  
• Religion
  
  

Wisdom

• Insight
  
  
• Perception
  
  

Charisma

• Deception
  
  
• Intimidation
  
  
• Performance
  
  
• Persuasion
  
  

Only success with CHA skill checks count towards reaching the victory/defeat conditions, but the INT and WIS skills could confer either advantage or disadvantage on the next CHA roll depending on its success of failure. 


In one "round" of negotiation, you'll submit a character's usual stat block with a specified skill check and its accompanying narrative role play. It doesn't have to be dialogue, but PC role play is intended in all scenes, combat & non combat, you name it, looking for the same level of roleplay. You can expect all scenes to function as role play scenes which uses dice mechanics to resolve actions, and in some cases an individual encounter may contain a one time use mini-game mechanic all in itself. 


Figure a round in this context, is about a minute. 


I am going to integrate Rob's characters injection into the wrapping up of this scene. We'll do that as narrative only while I am building his models. 


Should be off and running again with this by Monday! 


How's everyone doing? Hope things have less crazy for you all then they have been with me! 

Also; BAD BATCH is top notch, kicking that Clone Wars action to another level! 

Also, here is that table you were asking for, Chris! lol! 

[url=Dungeon Full Dive]https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dfdstudios/dungeon-full-dive-make-your-dnd-worlds-real?fbclid=IwAR3_5i84nqVu2LBGic0d-7e2LVv5eUxGntMaHf3c-ws8CeZ7d3_AHVZFK_Y[/url]

I want to double check everybody is interested in continuing, before continuing. 

I don't want anyone to feel obligated or be participating if they aren't definitely enjoying the game and-or the development process/discussion around it. 

Myself, Im having fun with both and am excited to continue, but am totally cool if this isn't something others want to invest further time into.

MAS wrote:Also; BAD BATCH is top notch, kicking that Clone Wars action to another level! 

Also, here is that table you were asking for, Chris! lol! 

[url=Dungeon Full Dive]https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dfdstudios/dungeon-full-dive-make-your-dnd-worlds-real?fbclid=IwAR3_5i84nqVu2LBGic0d-7e2LVv5eUxGntMaHf3c-ws8CeZ7d3_AHVZFK_Y[/url]

wow, that looks cool!

we are waiting until Friday night family movie time for Bad Batch. the boys want to watch too

MAS wrote:I want to double check everybody is interested in continuing, before continuing. 

I don't want anyone to feel obligated or be participating if they aren't definitely enjoying the game and-or the development process/discussion around it. 

Myself, Im having fun with both and am excited to continue, but am totally cool if this isn't something others want to invest further time into.

I am enjoying it as a player. I dig the variety of doing modern GIJOE type stuff.

caveat - if I end up as GM, then I might drop out due to the time commitment involved. but its early in the discussion, so who knows?

Chris wrote:

MAS wrote:Also; BAD BATCH is top notch, kicking that Clone Wars action to another level! 

Also, here is that table you were asking for, Chris! lol! 

[url=Dungeon Full Dive]https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dfdstudios/dungeon-full-dive-make-your-dnd-worlds-real?fbclid=IwAR3_5i84nqVu2LBGic0d-7e2LVv5eUxGntMaHf3c-ws8CeZ7d3_AHVZFK_Y[/url]

wow, that looks cool!

we are waiting until Friday night family movie time for Bad Batch.  the boys want to watch too

I found Bad Batch off to a solid start. Animation is a step up from already amazing stuff they did at the end of the Clone Wars. lemme know when youve seen it so we can BS! 

Glad you want to continue, dig the caveat.

I updated my characters' profiles with images.

Also still want to do a once-over on stats and purchase some more gear. Will be ready by Monday.

Robyo wrote:I updated my characters' profiles with images.

Also still want to do a once-over on stats and purchase some more gear. Will be ready by Monday.

 roger that